S3E07: Forging a Compositional Path: Dr. Zanaida Stewart Robles
This week, we’re chatting with composer, singer, and chair of the board of LA-based vocal ensemble, Tonality, Dr. Zanaida Robles, about how she discovered her compositional gifts, and what inspires her to write such exceptional and moving choral music.
Music excerpts
“Kuumba” by Zanaida Robles
“Can You See” by Zanaida Robles, performed by Tonality
“She Lingers On” by Zanaida Robles
“Kyrie” by Zanaida Robles
“Lady in Blue” by Zanaida Robles, performed by Tonality, text by Ntozake Shange
“Umoja” by Zanaida Robles
Episode references
Theme Song: Mr. Puffy by Avi Bortnik, arr. by Paul Kim. Performed by Dynamic
Episode Transcript
Intro [00:00:07] Hello! And welcome to In Unison, the podcast about new choral music, and the conductors, composers and choristers who create it! We are your hosts: I am Zane Fiala, Artistic Director of the International Orange Chorale of San Francisco, and I’m Giacomo DiGrigoli, a tenor in IOCSF, the Golden Gate Men’s Chorus, and the SF Symphony Chorus. And this is, In Unison! (I like being in unison!)
Zane [00:00:35] Let's kick off this week's episode with a piece titled "Kuumba,” a reflection on creativity as a gift to our community as the sixth principle of kwanzaa, composed by this week's exceptionally creative guest, Dr. Zanaida Robles. [00:00:51] [Music excerpt: the word "kuumba" is sung several times - sounding similar to an incantation or an invitation. The word is sung by a lone female singer, until a few more treble singers enter - providing harmony and an improvisatory counterpoint to this incantation and meditation on the word "kuumba".]
Zane [00:03:09] Today on In Unison, we have our very first returning guest, Dr. Zanaida Stewart Robles. My middle name is Stewart as well, although spelled differently.
Zanaida [00:03:19] Hello!
Zane [00:03:19] Born, raised and educated in Southern California, Zanaida is in demand as a vocalist, conductor, clinician and adjudicator for competitions, festivals and conferences related to both choral and solo vocal music. She is also a fierce advocate for diversity and inclusion in music education and performance. Zanaida serves on the national board of the National Association of Negro Musicians and is chair of the Board of Directors of Tonality, a nonprofit organization that promotes peace, unity and social justice through choral music performance in Los Angeles. Zanaida earned her Doctor of Musical Arts degree from the USC Thornton School of Music, her Master of Music degree from CSU Northridge, her bachelor's from CSU Long Beach and is a graduate of the L.A. County High School for the Arts. Welcome, Zanaida! Thanks so much for joining us again on In Unison!
Zanaida [00:04:13] It's a pleasure to be with you again here on In Unison. I've been sporting my T-shirt! [laughter]
Giacomo [00:04:18] Yay!
Zane [00:04:20] Yeah! [laughter from Giacomo and Zanaida] Who doesn't... give us a plug! [in a radio announcer's voice] "Listeners, if you're listening out there, you can buy a T-shirt if you'd like by going to our website." [laughter from Zanaida]
Giacomo [00:04:25] You too can be as cool as Zanaida Robles!
Zanaida [00:04:27] Yeah! I have the best earrings that go with the T-shirt, too. I was lookin' so cute this weekend. Y'all missed it. But it's okay... [laughter]
Giacomo [00:04:33] Ooh, cute! OK. I know I need to hear about these, these earrings!
Zanaida [00:04:35] Oh they're big! Like I have these big orange, wooden earrings, 'cause I love big earrings. And so every time I want to wear big earrings, I'm looking forward to an opportunity to wear those. And the In Unison shirt just pops it!
Giacomo [00:04:49] Sweet!
Zane [00:04:49] Oh yes!
Zanaida [00:04:49] They look so good!
Zane [00:04:50] You have to send us a picture!
Zanaida [00:04:52] I will!
Giacomo [00:04:54] Please, please! Well, we always start these conversations off, though you do feel like an old friend to us, which we feel very fortunate about. Our audience is getting to know you a little bit, too. And so we'll start with an icebreaker. If you could pitch your own Netflix show, what would it be about?
Zanaida [00:05:11] Oh, man! Netflix would never want a show that I pitched, but ummm... [chuckles]
Giacomo [00:05:16] It's very L.A., right? This is like such an L.A. thing...
Zanaida [00:05:17] Yeah...
Giacomo [00:05:17] Everyone has a show.
Zanaida [00:05:19] Oh my God... Umm... So I'll just... Okay! The first thing that came to mind... I think, OK - this is so lame - But I don't know. It's a dream. Like, backstage or behind the scenes with a football choir. I know that's weird. Like I [laughter]...
Giacomo [00:05:41] Ooh! We both, like, perked up! We're like, "What is a football choir? What is this?"
Zanaida [00:05:45] Football choir... Like a bunch of football players who have to be in a choir together and you, and you watch them like, like do football stuff. And then you have to watch them, like, be in a choir and, like, they compare, like, what the similarities and differences are. And then they bond and become like, all like... You know, you know, in touch with their emotions and their bodies. And they understand their athleticism in terms of their artistry and that kind of stuff.
Giacomo [00:06:13] OK, first of all, that sounds hot. [laughter from Zanaida].
Zane [00:06:15] Yeah. [laughter].
Giacomo [00:06:15] Giacomo: [00:06:15] I'm definitely watching that. [laughter from Zane] I'm just saying. But what's really, what's really interesting about that is that that's actually very European. Like all of the guys that you see, on like, these football teams are like... that play... It's just what you do. Like you play soccer, you play a sport, and then you sing.
Zanaida [00:06:31] Yeah.
Giacomo [00:06:31] And that's just fascinating. So it may involve some travel as well. You may have to travel.
Zanaida [00:06:36] I think it might.
Giacomo [00:06:37] It's very important. [laughter from Zanaida] But also very hot! Oh my God.
Zanaida [00:06:42] Yeah. I wanna see that!
Giacomo [00:06:42] Yes. This is like...
Zanaida [00:06:44] Come on Netflix! Give me a call, I guess. I mean I can't write it but somebody else can write it.
Giacomo [00:06:48] You could direct it. You could just art direct it. You could just be like, "This is the music I need and this is the football team." I'll help you with picking the football team.
Zanaida [00:06:54] I wanna pick the football team! [laughter from Zanaida and Zane]
Giacomo [00:06:54] [laughter] Great! We could both, we could both do it. That's fine. It's all good!
Zanaida [00:07:04] All right, deal!
Zane [00:07:04] That's brilliant! That's a great idea! Honestly, actually. I would watch that. And I think a lot of people would watch that show, actually. That's a good... that's a good idea! [laughter]
Giacomo [00:07:13] Call Dr. Robles, Netflix! Immediately!
Zane [00:07:16] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, since that gave us a little bit of a taste of who you are, why don't we move into who you are as a musician and maybe you can start off by telling us, why are you a composer?
Zanaida [00:07:33] Uhh... I don't know! I just was made this way, I think. And I say that because I think I have sort of... I'm one of these folks that kind of just always knew I was a musician and was, you know, trying to write songs and, you know, from a very young age. And, you know, and I just, I just kind of always... I can't... I think... I mean, the earliest, like, age I remember being - you have, you have like the earliest age you remember being or earliest age you remember your parents. So I remember being five years old and knowing that I was a musician and deciding I was going to start making up songs. Like that's... The word composer wasn't in my vocabulary, but I made up songs. And so I would make up songs, and, you know, it was very awkward because... You know, I listen to the radio a lot. And so I heard a lot of love songs, you know. I was listening to like kind of 80s back then. I was listening to, like, a lot of 80s R&B, and sort of early hip hop type stuff, you know, and stuff. So a lot of love songs, a lot of love themes. And so when I'm writing songs with lyrics about making love and stuff and I'm six years old, like, that's not really the best thing. But I was definitely creative, you know. So that was, that was a sign that, you know, I was maybe [chuckle] pretentious or precocious or whatever. But I just never had a question about what, who I was. Like, that's just a gift. And umm... but I didn't...
Zanaida [00:09:13] I think when I got into academia, I didn't see myself as a composer in an academic or serious way, which I sort of regret, because I think that I could have... I don't know that I would have necessarily wanted to do anything different. I don't regret my path. I regret the way I saw myself or the way I didn't see myself as someone who could really seriously pursue music composition. I knew I wrote things and I kind of knew that I was, you know, I could be kind of a composer. But it wasn't until recently that I really started to come into my own and understand that I had a significant voice to contribute to the world of composition - and particularly choral music composition. And so maybe in a way, I've come full circle. I feel compelled to write about things, you know, that are not maybe what we usually hear choir singing about. And so... Yeah! I feel like, you know, it's just been an evolution.
Zane [00:10:15] What is it that's happened recently that has pushed you into being more of a full blown composer, as you would say?
Zanaida [00:10:23] I think it was in 2018 when Alex Blake of Tonality commissioned me to write "Can You See?" And "Can You See?" was a piece that was based, is based on protest signs that were kind of popular at the time with statements like "Love is Love", "Black Lives Matter", "No Human is Illegal", "Science is Real", "Water is Life". And he didn't ask me about those signs. I don't... For some reason, that sign just jumped out at me as musical. And the piece came to me really quickly. And it was the first time I felt like I sat down with sort of a composer's mindset - like a toolbox. Not just a songwriter or a poet, but like, "I'm gonna construct this piece with these themes and these motives and layers and, you know, melodic content and harmonic structure.".
Zanaida [00:11:22] Like, I really felt like that was the first time I really had an opportunity to use tools that I had been amassing over the years. And once Tonality gave me an opportunity to do that, it really opened my eyes like, "I actually have a skill that I haven't been... Why haven't I been using the skill? That was, that was cool." It wasn't easy, but it was definitely fulfilling. And that's when I kind of started. That piece got some attention. And then I got requests to do other things and I started doing other things. And so now I've got several pieces out - some of them self published, a few that are published with other companies.
Zanaida [00:12:04] And I've got, I've got like four commissions right now, which is something I never imagined I would have. Which is why I say all of a sudden now I feel a little bit like a baby composer because I feel like - I just never imagined that I would be... Sounds terrible! I never imagined I would be legit! You know, like I feel, I feel like my music has a reason to be out where before I didn't feel like my music was for anybody but me. And that's really gratifying.
Giacomo [00:12:35] I want to ask a little bit about that and combine that a little bit with what you had mentioned about academia, too, that you sort of felt like it wasn't for you or something, you know - that you didn't sort of feel like you were putting out there. Why do you suppose you felt that way?
Zanaida [00:12:50] I just didn't think my music... I wasn't trying to create cerebral music. I wasn't trying to use... I really was kind of turned off. I was pretty good at music theory throughout school, but I was really not very good at umm... materials of modern music and post-tonal analysis and all of the more modern trends in music. That really turned me off! And I was sort of like, "If that's what I have to do to be a modern composer, like, screw that! I don't wanna, I don't wanna make music like that!" That music doesn't speak to me... That music is... I understand its place. And I definitely appreciate being an artist, you know, as a singer who has enough skills to sort of execute music like that. Like I can appreciate it from an academic standpoint. But I don't want to hear that, you know? [laughter] Like I don't wanna... I'm not going to sit down and want to listen to it. I mean, I get... Unless, you know, I'm trying to challenge myself, you know, from a musical academic standpoint.
Zanaida [00:13:52] But I guess you have, I mean, every art you have to push the envelope. But I wasn't trying to push anything. I'm not trying to push anything in terms of technique or, you know, compositional vocabulary. I just have emotions that I wanna explore or I wanna... or I have subjects that I want to explore using a musical vernacular that I was familiar with or that was intriguing or sonically exciting to me! Like, I love exploring. You know, I like the sounds of the whole tone scale. I love extended harmonies and jazz chords. I like ninth's, you know? I like your ear candy, you know? I like the stuff that just, that sounds pretty. And I also like exploring, you know, the divisions of the octatonic scale. I got into that little while... And I love how there's different chords that you can pick out of that and move around, you know, tertiary harmonies and stuff like... So I could get kind of nerdy about it, but was never far enough to be what I thought would be serious music. So that's why I didn't really think of my music or my compositional voice as being one that needed to be out.
Zane [00:14:58] That's such an interesting thing to bring up. You know, we've had a conversation with a lot of our guests about uhh [sighs]... academia and it's the way that music that is academic is exclusionary, you know. In that "if you don't understand it, then you can't appreciate it" - that kind of thing. And, and I think that your music, and you mentioned your piece "Can You See?", which of course, is really easy to get attached to. I personally am very attached to that composition.
Giacomo [00:15:30] Same.
Zane [00:15:30] I think it's just a really moving piece of music and...
Zanaida [00:15:33] Thank you.
Zane [00:15:34] And the thing about it, and we talked to Alex a little bit about this as well, is that it's... it's inclusive. It's the kind of music that you don't have to know music theory; you don't have to know what octatonicism means or any of the things that you just referenced. You don't have to know any of that stuff to be able to appreciate it and for it to move you.
Giacomo [00:15:55] And yet! It is chock full of those things...
Zane [00:15:58] That's true.
Giacomo [00:15:58] Like the last minute - all the contrapuntal things that you have done, where you've set the melody of the national anthem and there is just a car wreck going on behind you emotionally. [laughter from Zanaida] I mean, it is just extraordinary!
Zanaida [00:16:10] Yeah.
Giacomo [00:16:10] But like... I mean, are there other, like, little hidden nerdy details you might be able to tell us about?
Zanaida [00:16:20] [laughter] Umm... ahh... I don't know! You know, it's hard to say because I think with a piece like that... I think that well, for one thing, I don't throw too many nerdy details into this like maybe there's like one nerdy detail, you know. [laughter from Zane].
Zanaida [00:16:32] So, the detail about "Can You See?" is the, the motives, you know. Each line from the protest sign has its own motive and its own treatment. And so, you know, that's borrowed from - I don't know who did motives and things - bunch of opera composers did motifs, you know. Or like, you know, film score people do motifs and stuff like that, you know.
Zane [00:16:57] Right. Yeah, yeah. All the Star Wars movies.
Zanaida [00:16:57] You can take a single motive and develop... Start. Yeah. Every Star Wars character has its own theme, right?
Zane [00:17:03] Mmhmm...
Zanaida [00:17:03] So it's similar, sort of in a way, like in a much, much smaller scale "Can You See?" each line has its own kind of thing, you know. So... Or yeah... I mean that's, that's basically it, you know. And then there is this, this idea - maybe you could think of this, the middle section, the motif that I created for the "Science is Real" section, which I think Alex says is like one of his favorite parts. The science section is kind of a canon. And then it's a canon...
Giacomo [00:17:34] [sings] "Science is real. Ta da, ta dum..."
Zanaida [00:17:35] Sort of with... yeah. Exactly! And so I've just kind of layered that at different levels. And then, each voice part comes in, you know, kind of staggered entrances and then the last voice parts to come in are the sopranos and just kind of ramp it up a little bit with their entrances is actually aleatoric. So, they don't even have a metrical moment to come in. They just... Once they start, they just kind of sing at their own, you know, speed and tempo to kind of give it this kind of weird kind of out of time, you know, sort of... "Infinity sound" is what I think I was thinking of in terms of... When I think of science, I was... I think I really was thinking about the infinite awesomeness of space. And so that's what I was trying to create by layering this canon, the order of the canon and then the infinite possibility of the aleatoric motion of the sopranos.
Zane [00:18:30] Brilliant.
Zanaida [00:18:30] That's dirty! Oh, my God! That's so dirty.
Giacomo [00:18:31] Oh, God! All of that in like five, six minutes. Good lord!
Zane [00:18:34] That was good. That was good.
Giacomo [00:18:35] How do you catch on...? And it's amazing to hear you talk about these meters and be like, "Ehh...I don't know. I'm not really..." And then just be like, "But actually, I'm a master." [laughter from Zane] It's kind of amazing! I love that. It's awesome.
Zanaida [00:18:45] [laughter] Thank you!
Zane [00:18:46] Let's listen to Zanaida's incredibly moving and inclusive piece now - showing her uniquely complex compositional style. This is "Can You See?", performed by Tonality on their album, Sing About it. [00:19:00] [Music excerpt: the melody and lyrics of the U.S. national anthem is deconstructed then assembled again and interspersed with protest slogans. The voices of the choir occasionally come together in unison to emphasize or underline a slogan or phrase. The choir elaborates on the national anthem until they are singing a harmonically complex and dense finale at the end.]
Giacomo [00:25:05] You've gotten, as you mentioned, you know, you're talking a little bit about your process here and you've gotten quite busy. It sounds like lots of folks are kind of calling and which is great. Like it's wonderful to see that. What are your favorite types of commissions to fulfill? I mean, do you often get handed a text and then you go or... Like, what are the attributes of a commission that you're like, "Yes! I'm going to pick up this project?"
Zanaida [00:25:29] Yeah, OK. So, I actually don't like commissions. [laughter]
Giacomo [00:25:36] [laughter] It's hard to be constrained, yeah.
Zanaida [00:25:38] You know? Yeah. Well, well here's the thing. I mean like I said, like I'm sort of at the beginning stages of what I hope will be a long, continuous compositional career. But I'm not making my living solely as a composer and I'm not trying to hustle. Like, honestly, just in terms of life and practicality, I can't handle commissions. The reason why I have these commissions that I have are because they're things that I really, really wanted to do. So, you know, like finish my a capella mass and write for... I've been dying to write for the Episcopal Church. And so I have a couple of commissions that are for church because I love that. I love the Episcopal Church tradition. I'm an Episcopalian and a lot of my music, you know...
Zanaida [00:26:24] Lately, I've been doing a lot of music that is, you know, sort of, you know, diversity-oriented or social-justice oriented and stuff. And just to get back to spirit and back to my sacred music root, my sacred roots. This is because sacred music is so, was so formational for me, especially with my work in the Episcopal Church, as a singer, as a soloist and section leader. So, I've got years of experience... and that I want to honor that. And I want to sort of offer, you know, kind of the... Like all of that experience is marinated in me and comes out in these compositions. And so the opportunity to actually do that for a church, you know, or an organization that wants to hear my voice and that's my compositional voice in that space like that is so exciting to me and doesn't come along very often. So, I have two opportunities for that to happen this year. And I couldn't pass it up because I want my music to live in that space that I love, you know, and in those spaces.
Giacomo [00:27:31] Let's talk about another piece that weighs heavy on the heart, I think - when you listen to it and you understand it - a piece that you wrote recently called "She Lingers On" and it explores depression and mental health. You wrote that it is, quote, "a choral expression of the sadness and loneliness one might feel when depressed. It's like being submerged underwater with waves of despair crashing over you, keeping you down. You can't breathe, but you can't give up. It's like coming completely apart while trying to hold it together.".
Giacomo [00:28:01] I am sure that there are many of us, particularly over the last year and half, we have felt this in isolation. We've felt it for ourselves and, even with May being "Mental Health Awareness Month", I think lots of us have been thinking about this. Let's talk a little bit about the... It creates such a feeling. What did you consider instrumentally when you were writing this piece? Like what was the soundscape you wanted to create that sort of reflects that feeling?
Zanaida [00:28:28] So "She Lingers On" was an improvisation. And so there was the... it wasn't... there was no concept, it was one day I was freaking depressed [laugher]. You know, like, I struggle with bouts of depression, anxiety and have struggled with that for over 20 years, you know. And I was having a day. And so I was sitting in my classroom. My students had gone for the day. And I just sat down and started playing this little riff, which I thought was the saddest... is, it's... it's {sings the note] "F", "B". What is it? [sings] "Ta, da, duh, duh". No, it's "F", "C", "B-flat", "A." And that B-flat in there with the pedal down, it's just kind of, it just kind of sticks there and it's like, won't go away.
Zanaida [00:29:21] It's not... It's not necessarily ugly, but it's not... It's not resolved. It's not resolved. That's how I feel. It's not resolved. It's not. It's not. It's not settled, not fixed. And so I just started playing that riff and I just started singing some random words, and those are the words that came out and I hit record on my phone. And so "She Lingers On", is a transcription of what I recorded that day. Even the piano part, it was hard to transcribe the piano part because I just... You know, it was just very much kind of a wash of C minor after I went from, you know, I was kind of like in this F, F B-flat land that was just kind of... I don't know what it is. Is it F? Is it B-flat? And then eventually some kind of wave came. And I was... We were in C minor. Well, whoah! I don't know how that happened. So that's what I mean by these ways... And eventually I climbed back up out of C Minor and got back to F-ish, you know, and like that that's what it felt like. F Major going to C minor going back to F Major. I guess it's not super weird, but the way that I got there is not like through traditional, you know, tonal harmony. You know, it's not like a... It's not like "F" is one minor five to one. It doesn't function that way. It doesn't have the same function. It's just... I fell off a cliff into C minor, you know? So when you think of it like that... like there's this idea of function not happening the way it would traditionally, which I think is what I was trying to do in the piece. And I hope that that comes across as this instability.
Giacomo [00:31:07] It definitely did. I was talking...
Zane [00:31:08] Let's listen to some of Zanaida's beautiful and heartfelt composition. Here's "She Lingers On." [00:31:14] [ Music excerpt: an arpeggiated chord is played insistently on the piano, over which a female soloist sings a mournful melody. More voices enter to provide support or counterpoint to the melody and then the piano provides an agitated accompaniment to the until the return of the initial mournful melody.]
Giacomo [00:34:24] Oh, I was talking with my brother a few days ago about his mental health. I mean, he, as many of us do, struggled with depression and anxiety. And he described the feeling that I think you described perfectly that sort of B-flat of like that unresolved feeling. And he described it as like that moment of anticipation, like when you have a chill, you usually get a you know, you usually can work it off because your body will shake it off in that feeling. But he described it as a chill you just can't resolve.
Zanaida [00:34:54] Yeah.
Giacomo [00:34:55] In your body, this physical sense that's constantly there. And I think that progression, that B-flat absolutely creates that feeling where you're like, "I feel unresolved or unsettled in some way." And it captures that feeling beautifully. I think it's really extraordinary.
Zanaida [00:35:08] Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting listening to that and then listen to it on... The thing is, is that it became... it didn't become a choral piece until I got it. I was commissioned to write a choral piece and I thought, "Well, what kinda piece...?", you know. It was kind of like, "you can write whatever you want, you know.".
Zanaida [00:35:24] What I did was, is I... I was like... I told my daughter, I have a teenage daughter, and I went to her and I said, "Hey, Felicity. I have to... I've been asked to write this piece for a treble choir, you know." And my daughter - she sings in choirs, too. And she's a singer. I trust her. And I was like, "What would you... What kind of piece would you like to sing?" She's like, "I don't..." Oh! She oh, I remember we had a really important conversation! She said, "You know, I don't know, I wanna sing about music that, like, is about what we actually are going through." And I was like, like mind blown. She's like, "'Cause we sing a lot about love and about God." And I'm like... I'm thinking to myself, "Tell me about it. It's all about love... it's either love songs or God songs, right?" She's like, "But I don't know, I don't really know that much about God or even if I believe in God. And I have never experienced love. I don't know what love is. But, you know, I know friends who have gone through divorces and I know I have friends that are struggling, you know, that are depressed. And I have...".
Zanaida [00:36:29] And when she mentioned these things that she was going through, you know, or she said... or about the environment and climate change. Like, these are, these young people are dealing with this stuff. And I said, "OK. Hey, I'm gonna play you something." In a moment of, like, real vulnerability, I'm going to play my 13, then 13 year old daughter this song I wrote. Like, oh she could trash this, right? But I played her my improvisation of "she walks in..." Then I was calling it "She walks in pools." And she listen to it and she said, "I can sing that." And I said, "OK, and I will set it." And that's what I did.
Zane [00:37:04] Beautiful.
Giacomo [00:37:06] My heart is like melting into a little puddle. It's the most beautiful origin story for a composition, I think. You had written a piece and we just happened to find this on your SoundCloud. And you mentioned, first of all, your a cappella mass, which I'm very interested in. But you also posted a Kyrie, which we all know is...
Zanaida [00:37:24] That's the... That's the first... that's a part of the a cappella mass. So the Kyrie is the first movement. I actually wrote the Kyrie when I was 17.
Giacomo [00:37:31] Oh wow!
Zanaida [00:37:31] It wasn't a Kyrie at that time. It was what I called a weeping song. And it had no words. And it was heavily influenced by the Barber, the Barber "Agnus Dei". You know, the adagio for strings that he wrote, you know. It turned into a choral piece which just murdered my heart every time I heard it, you know, when I was 17 years old. And so that was kind of like my tribute to Samuel Barber. And then eventually, because I figured out, you know, hey, I probably could do more with this if it actually had words. And what words should I use? Well, churches use a lot of choral music. I think the Kyrie. "Kyrie eleison, christe eleison." That's not too many words. I can probably make that fit. So that was a very practical marriage of text and music that worked really well as part of my sort of, you know, evolving choral journey when I was doing my work at CSUN, Cal State Northridge. So that's where that became Kyrie. And then after that, the other movements have sort of just been kind of in workshop mode. And so but now I have an opportunity to complete the work. And I've got four out of - I've got about four out of five done. So I got to get the fifth one. I gotta punch that out somehow. But I think I can do it. I'm looking forward to it.
Zane [00:38:46] Here's the first movement of Zanaida's a cappella mass, the Kyrie. [00:38:51] [Music excerpt: a choir of treble voices sing a placid setting of the "kyrie eleison, christe eleison". The harmonic arrangement of all voices is dense with occasional delicious dissonances.]
Giacomo [00:41:55] What's left? Is it... Are you following the sort of traditional mass, like the "Agnus dei" and the full...
Zanaida [00:42:02] Yeah, yeah. So, mmhmm. I've got the Kyrie, I've got the Crede, I've got the Santus, I've got the Agnus Dei - for the most part. I got to rework some things and the Credo is almost finished. But I know how the ending is. I know how it's going to go. It's all up here, don't worry! [laughter from Zane].
Zanaida [00:42:16] And then... But the Gloria, which probably... I keep feeling like it should have been the easiest, probably the first thing to come out. But Gloria is like stuck. Like it's constipated up in my brain. I can't get it out. [laughter from Zane] I need some kind of compositional laxative 'cause it's stuck.
Giacomo [00:42:33] [laughter] I mean, do you find that... I mean, you refer to the Kyrie as being a weeping song?
Zanaida [00:42:37] Yeah.
Giacomo [00:42:37] I mean, do you have a feeling yet or a color or an emotion that's attached to what you want to do with the Gloria?
Zanaida [00:42:42] That's a great question! I think... I think you know what? Here's my prob... Thank you for helping me work through this!
Giacomo [00:42:49] I'm trying to be choral ex-lax here, you know. We're working it out!
Zanaida [00:42:54] Let's work through this. Work it out! [laughter] So nasty,, but anyway!
Giacomo [00:42:59] Sometimes you gotta work it out.
Zanaida [00:43:00] You know. Well, here's the thing. I have... When I was... I came up with this melody for the Gloria that sounds too much like a theme or like a segment of music I heard from Conan the Destroyer. I don't know why! It's somehow... It's like the most random thing. I saw Conan the Destroyer when I was young. The movie traumatized me. When the thing comes to life at the end and there's this party music playing, OK? I can't even describe how that music sounds except for it's kind of in three and it's in G Major. That's the thing. So the Gloria is in G Major and it kind of has this modal, sort of mixolydian feel and it's kind of got this party. But that party goes to hell. Like, everybody dies at the party. Like the thing comes to life and kills everything. So, I can't have my Gloria sound like that. I gotta get that melody out. I don't think that melody is gonna work. [laughter from Zane]
Giacomo [00:44:05] [laughter] Well, we love finding those pop references. So, like, I'm sure somebody would be like, "Hey! Oh wow... it's Conan the Destroyer."
Zanaida [00:44:11] I don't think anybody... Nobody's gonna recognize Conan in my Gloria.
Giacomo [00:44:17] Actually, Zane might! He's a big, uh...
Zane [00:44:20] And actually, I actually have this problem where when I listen to music, I hear other music almost always.
Zanaida [00:44:24] Yeah.
Zane [00:44:25] If I hear a little snippet of a melody, I go, "Oh! That was such and such a song from something or other." And I call composers out on it all the time. And I'm like, "Did you mean to reference this song by and so-and-so?"
Zanaida [00:44:35] Did they deny it? [laughter from Giacomo]
Zane [00:44:38] And like I questioned Vince Peterson about that. But yeah, actually I was going to say in the Kyrie, your Kyrie, I listened to it and I wrote down some notes about it and I wrote that there were several moments in it where the music was really reminiscent of like fifties and sixties pop songs. In fact, there was one moment where I was like, "That was a Beatles song, I swear! I just heard a Beatles song."
Zanaida [00:45:01] What? I wonder where that is. Well, that's really interesting because at the time I wrote that, I don't think I had that sound scape in my environment. So, I don't know where you got that from. [laughter]
Zane [00:45:18] I don't know. That's just what I heard.
Zanaida [00:45:22] [laughter] But here's the thing. Like, you know, I'm glad you mentioned, you know, this idea that you hear, you hear a song, you hear melodies and things recognizable in composers' music. I think it would be crazy to think that composers don't have other music going on in their minds when they're composing. That's how music, you know, is born, you know.
Zane [00:45:41] Oh yeah.
Zanaida [00:45:41] You build on... we build on what we know. We build on what we hear. And that's part of the reason... Maybe that's the issue I sometimes have with academic music is because it feels so disconnected from what's happening in our world. Like, I don't want my music... I want my music to help me connect with my world, you know. And so finding connections with, you know, other themes or the music or other subjects or, you know anything that can help us find connection I feel like is generative and wholesome and is a reason for, you know, why we make our art, right?
Zane [00:46:16] Yeah.
Giacomo [00:46:16] Well, you had a piece that threw me back and created a connection for me - "Lady in Blue".
Zanaida [00:46:23] Mmm...
Giacomo [00:46:23] Shifting gears a little bit here, because this piece just hits so hard, and it feels really deeply personal. And of course, it's... The text is by Ntozake Shange, from her brilliant piece "For Colored Girls Who've Considered Suicide When the Rainbow is Enough". I mean, it threw me back to being in college and, you know, being a gay white boy, being like, "Oh, my God. So many feelings." You know, but it's just being like, "Oh, this is an experience I don't know and understand and just being bowled over by it.".
Zanaida [00:46:50] Mmhmm...
Giacomo [00:46:50] What inspired you to reference that text for your composition?
Zanaida [00:46:56] I'm glad you brought it up because I think that this is a piece that's becoming harder for me to talk about, because the way that it came about was so sort of innocent. I did not know that worked at all when I wrote this piece. I wrote... I actually conceived of it and recorded it when I was... I guess I was 16. And I wrote it for a friend, for a dancer. I went to the L.A. County High School for the Arts and we both were competing in a competition called the NAACP ACT-SO competition. And she was competing at the national level, modern dance. And the year previous, I had won at the national level for composition for my piece "A Mother's Plea; The Angels' Reply", which essentially is my Psalm 121, which is one of the pieces on there. So, I won an award for that composition at this competition.
Zanaida [00:47:55] So the next year I wrote a piece for my friend who was competing in dance. And she asked me to set that text because she wanted to dance that text. And so when I wrote it. I... That was probably the first time I used a technique that I've come to rely on - I really like to use - which is sort of I improvised singing the text and then I arrange my improvisation. That's how I composed that piece. And so what I did when back then, back in the day, I have like a tape recorder, right? And so I just recorded myself singing an improvisation of that text. And so I just let the text kind of speak to me, just whatever it was saying. I didn't have any connection to the poet. I didn't know anything about the work. I just heard the words and the words had that music to it. And so... and I didn't write it. Nothing was written down. It was just all in recording. And so then I put a... I organized or arranged an accompaniment with it, that I played by ear. And then I... it actually have like a percussion accompaniment, too. So... and it was, it was kind of a pop... There was like this improvs I went over and I go, I start riffing at the end and everything like that.
Zanaida [00:49:17] So, that's how the piece began. It was not a choral piece at all. It was a... It was really kind of a pops... Like a pop art song? And then Alex was doing... Tonality shows up again!
Giacomo [00:49:34] You know, he said that he bullied you into completing things. [laughter from Zanaida and Zane] But now I'm believing this a little bit more. [laughter]
Zanaida [00:49:41] You know, he's a very persuasive person. But I had been wanting... I felt like, again, like, I never thought that that piece really... I didn't think that the way - I knew that the subject was serious enough. But I didn't think I'd... two things: I didn't think that that subject was... that the choral world or the world was ready for that kind of song. Like, I couldn't imagine where that song would live. And I did not... I didn't think that the way that I had set that text was serious enough because it was more... it was more, it was in a more popular style.
Zane [00:50:24] Mmhmm...
Zanaida [00:50:25] So that piece sat kind of just in my mind and on a tape. Like a cassette tape for 20 years. And then I went back and listened to it and I transcribed what I had, what I recorded. And that's how... and I arranged it for words, for treble voices and piano. And that's how we got "Lady in Blue" for.
Zane [00:50:46] And so what's the reception been like?
Zanaida [00:50:49] Umm... it's been interesting. I don't... you know, it's hard to say. It's maybe mixed. I think that some institutions like educators at the... In higher ed institutions are, you know, kind of... They want to, they're ready to take on more substantial subject matter, and they're, they really wanna dig into a work like this. But they're not there. There's some fear about how do you put this on a concert, you know? There have been conductors that work with treble choruses, with younger aged, who want to do something like this with their younger aged singers, because it's not... I don't think it's difficult. It's like... It's very singable. And, you know, it's in an idiom that, you know, like young, you know, high school treble chorus, you know, a really good high school treble chorus could nail that piece.
Zanaida [00:51:54] But. You try to... I try... I thought about doing it with a high school treble chorus. I shared it with them and I got calls from parents. "Why are you doing... why are you doing that?".
Giacomo [00:52:05] That is remarkable!
Zanaida [00:52:07] "Why are you talking about this? So this doesn't belong in class. I think you've gone too far. I don't want my child singing about abortion - and the graphic nature of the words." I mean, it's poetry. There's nothing... There's nothing... it's poetry! You know?
Giacomo [00:52:23] It's a classic. I mean, this piece at this point has made such an impact. This is... I mean, and who do they think is talk... needs to be talking about this topic?
Zanaida [00:52:31] Who you tellin'?
Giacomo [00:52:33] Right?
Zanaida [00:52:33] I'm just, I'm just saying! Like, so there's that. So I don't know what this piece is gonna do. I mean, the thing is, it's out now, you now. If you got... If people want it, it's, you know, just by it. You can have it. You can do whatever you want with it, you know, if you purchased it with whoever you want to do it. But I think, as mainstream repertoire, I don't know that it's there yet or I don't know if it will get there because of the... you know, there's a lot of a... There's, there's something... There's some courage that needs to be in place and some, you know, real vulnerability not just on the part of the singers and the conductors, but you gotta trust your audience with it, too. And that's the thing, you know. We have a lot of relationship building to do before we can, I think, deal with a piece like that.
Zanaida [00:53:29] Here's that piece now. This is "Lady in Blue" performed by Tonality. [00:53:35] [Music excerpt: a haunting piano accompanies a female soloist singing a halting melody with lyrics depicting a moment in an abortion clinic. The rest of the chorus amplifies this angst-ridden experience and the song ends in a breathy whisper.]
Giacomo [00:57:52] Well, it's remarkable also that you are, I guess not even a member, you are the chairman of Tonality in L.A., which feels like... it sounds strange to say that it's a new category in terms of like the type of music. But in some ways, like what you've just described is exactly the audience that is hungering to hear this music.
Zanaida [00:58:14] Yeah.
Giacomo [00:58:14] And you sort of really crafted and created it. How did you first become a part of Tonality and why was it important to you?
Zanaida [00:58:25] Alex was, you know, like many of us, reeling from the, you know, systemic police violence. It sounds so awful for me to say this - I can't remember which poor black person was killed at the time. Alex wanted to go and decide to form this org, this group. But yet another person had been murdered. And, you know, he called me up and he was like, "I want to start a group. I want to start a group that really, you know - it has diversity at its core so that we can start seeing each other as human, you know." And those are my words, not his. But I understood it that way. And so I helped. I, you know... he asked me who did I think might be interested in a group like this, because I had assembled in a choir in the past, like a diverse choir in the past. And so I kind of gave him some contacts of mine. And he did all the kind of legwork to get the, to contact people, to get everybody together. And once we got in the room... And I started off as a singer. I was just one of the other people that wanted to process what we were experiencing in the world through choral music. And that's what we did. From the first rehearsal, it was a combination of the repertoire and of Alex's ability to shape a sound and connect. I mean, he's just... just the way... I mean, he's an expert conductor. He's just a... he's just an excellent technician.
Zanaida [01:00:03] And so there's something about the way he's able to connect what we sing to what we feel that made that feel... It was just like an electric experience. We knew we had something special, I think. And so I just believed in it from then on. I just... because I felt like the... we made it! It wasn't because we wanted to create a group, you know, so we could go perform for audiences. We were... it was for us! I... We needed each other! And so... That's one of the things about the level of excellence that Tonality is, is I think it's... one of the reasons it might be as high as it is - the excellence we I mean - is because, again, this music we're making is for us also. It's our, it's our healing, you know, experience. And so we give it our all because it's from us, for us. And I think that really is special about Tonality and that radiates out into our performance and touches the audience as well. You can't go to a Tonality concert and not hear and feel a connection. Like, even if you're not a connection oriented person, you'll... you won't be able to escape seeing it. Like, this is what it looks like. So jump on board.
Giacomo [01:01:22] Well, I mean, that dovetails so beautifully into another of your compositions, a beautiful piece called "Umoja", which is a term that means unity to strive for and maintain unity in the family, community, nation and race. And as you can imagine, unity is an important concept for the host of a podcast named In Unison.
Zanaida [01:01:41] Mmhmm... [laughter from Zane]
Giacomo [01:01:41] It's something that we strive for as well. But what does that - maybe what does that piece and sort of in Tonality's mission - what does that concept mean to you as it relates to the choral community at large?
Zanaida [01:01:53] Umoja is, you know, a piece that sort of embodies... I mean, it's... you know, it's pretty self-explanatory. It's like, it is unity. That's what it is. And so I think it's unity existing wherever, you know, two or more people are gathered, you know. That's where umoja can be found and... umoja can be sung, you know, by two or more people - could be sung by one person, really. I mean... It can be embodied in an infinity of combinations of voices and people. That's what I designed it for. It's designed to be, you know, learned in unison. It's designed to be kind of learned call and response style. It is notated. So if you want to calculate the pitches and rhythms, you can. It's designed. You can do it in solfege, it's easy enough. It's very simple. It's a very short motif. And the piece that the actual... The arrangement that I composed of my original tune, you know. It's just an arrangement that, you know, using some compositional techniques: layering, you know, and staggering entrances and adding a little bit of this, you know. Like with cooking, you just add some spices and stuff. But it's you know, the main part of the dish is the [sings a melody] "oooh, oooh, umoja" That's it. That's all it is. It's like do and so
Giacomo [01:03:26] Please just keep going, just keep going. [laughter from Zane]
Zanaida [01:03:30] [laughter] But that's it! I can't 'cause that's all there is. That's all there is. And the next step would be "Now you do it! That's what makes umoja umoja. It's how you do it. It's always an invitation for you to join because in order for me to experience unity, I need you to unite with me." RIght? So that's the purpose and the point behind umoja and why it relates to my work, you know, in various field spheres of the choral world. But specifically to Tonality. Tonality hasn't done it yet!
Giacomo [01:04:01] Well get on it, Alex! Come on! [laughter from Zane]
Zanaida [01:04:03] I mean, you know, there's... it's such a... I don't know, maybe I should bug him about it. "Why haven't you done umoja?" You know.
Giacomo [01:04:09] Well, it's such a beautiful invitation. It's really so beautiful. It's wonderful. It's really wonderful.
Zanaida [01:04:16] Well, thank you. I appreciate it.
Giacomo [01:04:17] Let's talk a little bit about looking forward and some projects you're excited about. I mean, aside from, of course, football and choirs and I am telling you I am going to be there. [laughter from Zanaida and Zane] To help, whatever you need to make that happen, you let me know! But tell us a lot about some projects that you're working on that you're excited about. What should be on the lookout for in the next coming weeks and months?
Zanaida [01:04:38] Oh, so probably not weeks and months. Probably more like, maybe several months or maybe even a year. I think I'm gonna take some time to really process a lot of what's been going on. And I think I'm really looking at some sacred music that I'm looking to write. My "Magnificat" and ``Nunc dimittis", trying to get worked on. Some organ music! I'm really having a good time learning about the organ. I started a couple of pieces. I have a work that I'm working on right now for someone and I did not know enough about the organ yet to write a piece. And so I wrote something down because Finale can notate it. But I did not consider the fact that just 'cause Finale can notate it doesn't mean that the organ can play it. [laughter from Giacomo and Zane].
Zanaida [01:05:26] So, I'm in a learning mode right now - just full disclosure. Like, I... you know, I have some study to do, which I'm really, really looking forward to taking this summer to really sort of go back to school. But school on my terms where I'm not trying to please some professor or get a grade. It's just so that I can get better and learn my craft. I'm gonna... I'm taking some lessons with one of my favorite people ever. Not gonna say who it is. But it's really, really neat to have colleagues that you admire and love so much and, you know, just being able to share ideas and work with each other. I'm really just trying to learn more about the craft. And so I'm looking forward to having a decent organ piece, a couple of great sacred pieces and hopefully some instrumental music as well.
Giacomo [01:06:20] Well, I know you have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to choirs and people to try out your music, but if you ever need a willing choir, you let us know. [laughter from Zanaida].
Zane [01:06:27] Mmhmm...
Giacomo [01:06:27] We have several... I know Zane... you've got the straight line to Zane, and I'm sure he's a big fan. And I don't mean to put words in your mouth, Zane. But I know he is. He's nodding along which is great.
Zane [01:06:38] Oh, yes. Absolutely!
Zanaida [01:06:39] Thank you!
Giacomo [01:06:40] In our last few minutes, maybe you can tell folks where we can find you online because you've mentioned that you have published a few pieces. So where do we go if we want to pick up some of your great new music and where can we listen to you?
Zanaida [01:06:54] So most of my music can be found on my website, which is simply zanaidarobles.com, which is just my first and my last name. But there are a few scores that are listed but that are not available. You can't actually purchase them from the website, but you can find them. There is my management of "Lift Ev'ry Voice and Sing", which is published by E.B. Marks music and available through distribution with Hal Leonard. There is "No Fairy Tale Here", which is published by Music Spoke and there is "She Lingers On", which is published by Pavane Publishing. But I have... Those are listed in a lot of my works and I think I have some links to where you can find those. So take a look at that. And then my SoundCloud is up and running and I have many of the pieces recorded. If you can stand hearing my voice a lot [laughter]. I go in and I multitrack myself singing all of the parts, including the bass part. And I'm not a bass. I'm totally a soprano. I'm just a nerd. [laughter from Giacomo] So that's what I do. I go and sing all the parts because it's fun. And then I upload them to SoundCloud just to give you a sense of what they're like. They're not meant to be done that way. But if you want to know what the music sounds like, at least get a sense, you can find it on SoundCloud.
Zane [01:08:08] And of course, we can hear you singing on the new Tonality album as well, right?
Zanaida [01:08:12] That's correct. Well, yes! I am... I'm worked in there somewhere.
Zane [01:08:18] Well, it's been so wonderful to chat with you, Dr. Robles, and to get to know you better and to dive into your process. It's so inspirational to hear you talk about just the many ways that you've come to composition, you know, and I think it's inspiring for those of us who maybe don't wanna write academic music, but we wanna write music that moves people. And you definitely have done that. So, you know, we thank you for the music you're putting in the world and for the energy that you've brought to, at least to me and Giacomo today and to our listeners, as well. It's been really, really wonderful to chat with you!
Zanaida [01:08:55] Thank you so much! It's really a pleasure to talk to you as well. Thanks for having me.
Zane [01:09:00] Absolutely.
Giacomo [01:09:01] Yay! Thank you, thank you.
Zane [01:09:03] Let's end this week's episode with an invitation to unity. Here's Dr. Robles' piece, "Umoja". [01:09:12] [Music excerpt: a female soloist sings the word "umoja" repeatedly in a lilting melody until more and more singers join her in a call of unity and eventually accompanied by a kalimba - a thumb piano.]
Outro [01:12:21] Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of the In Unison podcast. Be sure to check out episode extras and subscribe at inunison podcast dot com. You can follow us on all social media @inunisonpod. And leave us a review on Apple podcasts to let us know what you think!
Chorus Dolores [01:12:38] Podcast transcripts edited and refined by Chorus Dolores, who'd like to remind you to update Zoom before rehearsal!
Credits [01:12:50] In Unison is produced and recorded by Mission: Orange Studios. Our theme music is Mr. Puffy, written by Avi Bortnick, arranged by Paul Kim, and performed by the Danish vocal jazz ensemble Dynamic on their debut album, This Is Dynamic. Special thanks to Paul Kim for permission. Be sure to check them out at dynamicjazz.dk.