S3E08:Virtuosic Filipino Composer and Choral Artist Saunder Choi
This week’s episode features a conversation with LA-based Filipino composer and choral artist Saunder Choi about his journey as a composer, some of the core characteristics of Philippine choral music, the future of music publishing, and even a bit about his favorite street food locales in the L.A. area.
Edited by Fausto Daos
Music excerpts
“Ang Alibangbang” by Saunder Choi, performed by Boston Conservatory at Berklee Chorale, conducted by Nathan Reiff
“Paanyaya 3” by Robin Estrada, performed by IOCSF
“Leron, Leron Sinta” by Saunder Choi, performed by IOCSF
“Dindikan” by Saunder Choi, performed by UU Santa Monica vocalists
“The New Colossus” by Saunder Choi, performed by The L.A. Choral Lab
“True Colors” by Tom Kelly & Billy Steinberg, arr. Saunder Choi, performed by Tonality
“Give You Rest” by Saunder Choi, performed by The L.A. Choral Lab
Episode references
Theme Song: Mr. Puffy by Avi Bortnik, arr. by Paul Kim. Performed by Dynamic
Episode Transcript
Intro [00:00:07] Hello! And welcome to In Unison, the podcast about new choral music, and the conductors, composers and choristers who create it! We are your hosts: I am Zane Fiala, Artistic Director of the International Orange Chorale of San Francisco, and I’m Giacomo DiGrigoli, a tenor in IOCSF, the Golden Gate Men’s Chorus, and the SF Symphony Chorus. And this is, In Unison! (I like being in unison!)
Zane [00:00:35] For today's episode of In Unison, we chatted with Filipino composer Saunder Choi about his journey as a composer, some of the core characteristics of Philippine choral music, and even a bit about his favorite street food locales in the L.A. area. Let's go ahead and get a taste of Saunder's style with a piece entitled "Ang Alibangbang," meaning "the butterfly," which is an arrangement of a traditional children's song from the Visayan region of the Philippines, performed by the Boston Conservatory at Berklee Chorale, conducted by Nathan Reiff. [00:01:07] [Music excerpt: a choir sings a rushed and relentless cascade of notes - all meant to evoke the frenetic flight of a butterfly. The basses take up the melody first then trade off with the other sections of the choir to describe a girl, wearing the latest fashion, who flits about like a butterfly.]
Zane [00:03:18] Joining us today on In Unison is Los Angeles based Filipino composer, singer, arranger and orchestrator Saunder Choi. Saunder's works have been performed by the Philippine Madrigal Singers, The Crossing Choir, the LA Master Chorale, Sacra Profana, Tonality and many others. And he has been commissioned by the L.A. Choral Lab, The Choral Arts Initiative, the Earth Choir in Taiwan, the Archipelago Singers in Indonesia and many, many others. In 2017, Saunder won the Indianapolis Symphonic Choir Carol Commission Competition and was awarded first prize in the 2014 American Prize for Choral Composition. He was one of the five composition fellows of the 2016 Big Sky Choral Initiative, where he worked with the Grammy Award-winning choir, The Crossing. And more recently, he was one of three composers chosen to participate in Pacific Chorale's Choral Sketches Workshop with renowned composer Tarik O'Regan. As a tenor, Saunder maintains an active singing schedule in Southern California, regularly singing with the L.A. Choral Lab, Pacific Chorale, C3LA: Contemporary Choral Collective of Los Angeles, the Hex Ensemble and Tonality. He also serves as teaching artist for the L.A. Master Chorale's Voices Within and Oratorio Project. And Saunder is currently director of music at Unitarian Universalist Community Church of Santa Monica. Born in Manila, Philippines, Saunder holds degrees from De La Salle University in Manila, Berklee College of Music and the USC Thornton School of Music. His works are published with See-A-Dot Music Publishing and Earth Songs as well as MusicSpoke and Muziksea, which is spelled "M-U-Z-I-K-S-E-A", and we'll put a link to that in our show notes, of course. Saunder, thanks so much for joining us. Welcome to In Unison!
Saunder [00:05:13] Thank you so much for having me here and for inviting me to become a guest.
Giacomo [00:05:20] We're thrilled we finally get a chance to meet you. We're huge fans of yours at IOC and here in the Bay Area. We love your music and we want to start today getting to know you a little bit better. As Zane mentioned, you're from the Philippines.
Saunder [00:05:34] Mmhmm...
Giacomo [00:05:34] And here's an ice breaker for you. If we were to visit your hometown, what local spots would you suggest we see?
Saunder [00:05:42] OK, so a lot of people might not know this, but I am Filipino-Chinese, meaning my grandparents were, uh, immigrated to the Philippines and grew up there. And although my dad was born in Hong Kong, he also grew up in the Philippines. And my mom, also Filipino-Chinese, also grew up in the Philippines. And so I think you would say I'm third generation or fourth generation Filipino-Chinese, and that the Philippines has one of the oldest Chinatowns in the world. I think the oldest Chinatown in the world. It's called Binondo. And it's very close to me.
Saunder [00:06:26] I spent a lot of time there. My family's office was there. I did, like, tutors there when I was a kid. I did music classes there. It's a very, very special place. It's a little bit gritty. But there's this thing called the Binondo Food Tour, and it specifically features, like, a Filipino-Chinese cuisine. And you sort of like go to different restaurants. And as a foodie myself, I would highly recommend doing that one. It's a very interesting food tour - you get a little bit of history, you get some food, it's a walking tour. Of course, you can do this when the pandemic's over, but you get to go through Intramuros, as well, which is the walled city, where it's a fort that was built by the Spaniards. We were under Spain and it's right beside Chinatown. So it's a pretty cool place.
Giacomo [00:07:29] That is amazing!
Zane [00:07:30] What's a favorite dish of yours that fits into the Chinese-Filipino culinary world?
Saunder [00:07:36] I think hopia is... It's a dessert. It's like... How, how would I describe...? It's like a moon cake almost, if you've had a moon cake in the past. But there is a specific flavor that's Filipino and ube hopia... Yeah, I don't know if you've had ube. It's sort of...
Giacomo [00:07:58] A root? Like a root flavor almost? So, like a taro?
Saunder [00:08:01] Yeah, it's a purple yam. It's becoming very popular. There's a... There's ube shortbread cookies in Trader Joe's right now and there's an ice cream too, which tastes nothing like ube, but it's there for the branding... [laughter from Giacomo and Zane] I recently did this. I reviewed the ube products. I was like, "I'm gonna get each one of these and I'm gonna... I'm gonna decide for myself if they are authentic or not. The ube mochi waffles are actually pretty good. But the shortbread cookies, the tea cookies and the ice cream? Nuh-uh! [laughter from Zane] Doesn't taste like ube.
Zane [00:08:38] [laughter] Nuh-uh...
Saunder [00:08:40] I'm sorry!
Giacomo [00:08:41] Neither of them? OK, so pass on both of those. I have to go to the Reddit thread on Trader Joe's and let people know. This is... Everything, everything is reviewed. So it's really fantastic.
Saunder [00:08:50] You know, if you want real ube ice cream, you have places like Seafood City in California which sell the real Filipino brands like Selecta or Magnolia. Those are the real ube ice cream that we grew up with. And it has a more potent ube flavor, I would say. It just doesn't taste... The ice cream, the ube ice cream from Trader Joe's just tastes like milk for me. But anyway...
Giacomo [00:09:18] Hard pass! [laughter from Saunder] Well, you mentioned, you mentioned growing up and spending lots of time in Binondo and you'd mentioned, I think, that you maybe took lessons there and perhaps started some of your musical career there. At what age... Is that where you realized where you were a composer? Like when did that realization come to you?
Saunder [00:09:40] So I started music lessons as a singer first when I was seven. And at that time, I remember that there was this, like, perception that you have to stop voice training when your voice breaks or when your voice changes, which is, of course, been debunked now. Right? But I remember that it used to be a thing. And so my voice teacher was also a composer and a pianist who started teaching me theory and piano. When my voice was changing, he was like, "Oh, let's pause on voice lessons for a bit and let's do some theory." And I remember starting to arrange at that time, I also did not have a real piano in our house, in my family. I had, we had one in my grandparents' house, but my parents actually bought a Korg Triton LE for me. And so I had a synthesizer growing up and that's where I learned all of the keys... Like, all of my playing came from there. And of course, with that came, like, at that time, I guess an internal sequencer, one of those sixteen channel things. And one of the things that my music teacher taught me to do is to create Minus or karaoke tracks. We called them Minus One in the Philippines, but karaoke tracks for pop songs. And so I learned, of course, like layering different drum parts, keyboards, bass, strings, etc., in conjunction with learning theory at that time. And I was also in choir at that time. And so I started arranging for choir as well when I was in high school.
Zane [00:11:35] In those early formative years, Saunder, what composers influenced you the most? Were they mostly Filipino composers or were you being influenced by composers around the world?
Saunder [00:11:45] I think it was a mix. Of course, when I was learning piano, there was a lot of Bach inventions - two-part, three-part ones. There was a lot of, like, Mozart sonatas and the, like... even Chopin at that time. I listened to a lot of his piano music. Philippine choral music I've already been listening to at that time as well. You have CDs from the U.S.T. Singers or the Philippine Madrigal Singers, the Ateneo, the Manila College Glee Club. But I also listen to a lot of Anglican groups, a lot of English groups like the King's Singers and the Swingle Singers and also a lot of pop music.
Saunder [00:12:33] Like, I love musical theater, pop music and I loved the... especially when the King's Singers and Swingle Singers does like pop a cappella stuff. That really spoke to me a lot. And so a lot of my early choral works were actually arrangements of pop music. My very, very first piece that was performed by a choir, I wrote it when I was a junior for the high school glee club that I was part of, and it was "Shine" by Trina Belamide. She wrote a song called "Shine". It was sung by our Asia songbird, Regina Velasquez, which as a young gay boy, of course, I was a big fan of the divas. And also, Ryan Cayabyab's music was also very influential at that time.
Giacomo [00:13:33] For sure! I mean, I think our audience probably knows this already, but, I mean, Filipino choral singing is just legendary from UST, University of San Tomas, to the Mads, the nickname for the Philippine Madrigal Singers, and legendary directors like Ryan and others. What is it that distinguishes the quality of Filipino choral singing from other groups? And why is it so damn good?
Saunder [00:13:57] OK, so some key words is virtuosity. I think a lot of Philippine choirs aim to be virtuosic and that is a result of, I think, all of the competitions. It's always been about the competitions for, for Philippine choral groups. It's like, "We're going to compete here! We're going to represent our country." It's all about, like, representing our country, competing and winning. So naturally, a lot of the pieces that were born out of this, that were commissioned out of this are very high energy, very like virtuosic pieces. And so a lot of the time, also Philippine choral music - and now also Southeast Asian choral music, because you see this in Indonesian choral music too - are highly polyphonic, which is one of the... probably the biggest things that that separates it from Western choral music, which is more homophonic.
Saunder [00:15:03] There is a master composer and choral conductor, Eudenice Palaruan, from the Philippines who last year mentioned something about Asian polyphony. So Asian polyphony, as I understand it, is number one, polyphonic texture. But number two, it has a lot of onomatopoeic textures, which is the imitation of folk instruments, which then again creates a lot of effects. So, when in Western choral music, the focus is more on melody and harmony. In Asian choral music or Southeast Asian choral music, a lot of the focus is on texture or imitating this folk instrument with a melody on top or with a theme on top. And so, we didn't really care so much for "divisi". There was no attitude of, "Oh, this piece is too hard for my ensemble." Like, it doesn't matter if it's the Philippine Madrigal singers or a university choir or a community chorus, they will attempt that piece even if it doesn't sound perfect at the end. And I think that go-getter attitude contributed to a lot of the success of Philippine choral singing.
Zane [00:16:26] Let's listen to some of that virtuosity that is a staple feature of Filipino choral music. Here is "Paanyaya 3", written by Robin Estrada, performed by the International Orange Chorale of San Francisco on their album, The Unknown Region. [00:16:43] [Music excerpt: a choir exhorts everyone who can hear to listen to their prayer. The choir deploys interlocking rhythmic and melodic units to create a complex, and sometimes dense, sound - similar to an Indonesian gamelan ensemble.]
Giacomo [00:21:49] Did that fight... I mean, did you find that experience singing with Mads... Does that...? I mean, it sounds a little bit like there's a lot of competitiveness as well. I mean, but it is... is it collegial inside the Philippines? And then it's like, "When we go to these international competitions, then the knives come out and we're really gonna compete and it's gonna be great!" Or is it, like, you all are... Or what is it? Steel sharpening steel. Like, just the level of excellence that all boats rise kind of a thing.
Saunder [00:22:15] It was never about being super competitive and being mean to others. I mean, we actually really love meeting choirs from other parts of the world. I remember, I was in the Mads for five years and went on several tours with them. And one of the most exciting parts of those tours is getting to sing together with those choirs. I mean, sure, you do these competitions - but after the competitions are over, you get to meet people, you get to hang out with them, you get to make friends with other choristers from around the world. And those friendships last forever.
Saunder [00:22:51] I remember one of my colleagues, from the Mads also, is a composer that you also have to check out. His name is Ily Matthew Manyano. He formed this choir called Sonos, comprising of choristers from around the world. And during the whole lockdown, during this virtual choir season, he was able to gather all of these singers that we met in various tours, in competitions and created several virtual choir pieces out of it that were, that were very memorable to have the space where even though we're, you know, a thousand miles apart, we could still sing with each other. And that wouldn't have been possible if we did not form these friendships while we were on tour.
Zane [00:23:42] I want to talk a little bit about Filipino folk traditions and the different influences on Filipino choral music, in particular. When Robin Estrada and I were working together to put together a program for the International Orange Chorale back in 2019, when we were going to feature all Filipino and Filipino American composers, she made a point to discuss with me the distinction between the Filipino folk tradition and then the Filipino indigenous tradition. And that there's a fairly, very big difference between those two. One being more influenced by the Spanish, you know, colonialization of the Philippines and then the other being more influenced by the heritage of the culture from, from outside of that Spanish influence. So, I thought maybe you might be able to tell our audience a little bit more about those two different traditions, what the differences are and where your music fits into that.
Saunder [00:24:36] Well, Robin might know more about this than I do. Indigenous music traditions, for me, speak to what I was talking about earlier, which is Asian polyphony, which is the imitation of the instruments. And this can range from gong instruments, usually from the southern part of the Philippines or bamboo instruments from the northern part of the Philippines. Of course, right now we're seeing that there are a lot of the indigenous Philippine choral music from the north are very, very close to the indigenous music, folk music of Taiwan because of that relationship. And then the gong music in the south, of course, is close to Indonesian, to Balinese, to gamelan. It's sort of a similar color palette, the similar textures, maybe a different way of playing or different theories or tuning systems. But it's... you see your similarities.
Saunder [00:25:40] I would say that those play more in the indigenous area and maybe the folk area is a lot of what we call "kundiman" or the art songs, the Philippine art songs, which are often in a "habanera" form where it starts in a minor key. And then the refrain is usually in the parallel major key, not relative, but very oftentimes it's parallel major in the refrain and you see a lot of these songs coming out of the 20th century. A lot of them, like "Bayan Ko", for example, are also very patriotic songs that are used for revolutions. And this particular style of that "habanera" form is very obviously influenced by the Spanish.
Saunder [00:26:39] I would add another layer to that, which is the sacred choral music, and that is very mostly influenced by, I would say, Western choral music. If you look at the works of Alejandro Consolacion, for example, AJ Consolacion, or some of the sacred works of John Pamintuan, they're homophonic, they're in that sort of like "Lauridsen-y" world, or they're closer to a lot of more Western type choral music. And a lot of the time they're in Latin. A lot of the time they... Some of them are Marian texts, the Philippines being largely Catholic. And sometimes they're in the local language, either Cebuano or Tagalog or Ilocano. But when it's sacred, it oftentimes does not really use that Asian polyphony texture that we're talking about earlier. But it's more of like a more lush, more homophonic texture, I would say. And I think that's largely influenced by maybe not only the Spanish colonization, but Western music in general. I mean, we were under a Commonwealth of the United States for a while, too. So I think with the coming of the Americans, the introduction of universities and academia to the Philippines, that was also an influence.
Saunder [00:28:25] Where do I fit in here? I would say that my... I don't know, I would like to think of myself as a chameleon, that I have no singular style because I listen to a wide variety of music. And coming from a school like Berklee College of Music, you know, I value the Western classical canon as much as popular music styles, as much as jazz, as much as folk music styles. And also while growing up, I played in a Chinese orchestra. So there's that! [laughter].
Zane [00:29:06] What did you play?
Saunder [00:29:06] I played percussion and for a while I tried to learn cello. And also I wrote for them. I went to a Filipino-Chinese school and we happened to have a Chinese orchestra. My aunt and uncle were players and were one of the organizers of the group. It was an alumni group and they needed a percussion player. They needed someone who knew how to read cipher notation, which I did at that time. That's when you see numbers. If you look at a lot of choirs in Indonesia, actually a lot of them read in cipher notation. So you might see like "O magnum mysterium" of Morten Lauridsen, in numbers. Because that's how, that's how a lot of singers sight read.
Zane [00:29:57] And the numbers refer to scale degrees?
Saunder [00:29:59] Yeah, they're scale degrees. Yeah, mmhmm... They're scale degrees, yeah.
Zane [00:30:03] Wow!
Saunder [00:30:04] And a lot of Chinese orchestras also - I mean, the more traditional ones. Of course, everyone reads Western notation now, but in that particular orchestra they mostly read cipher notation.
Giacomo [00:30:18] I would love to shift a little bit to talk about some of your compositions specifically. And one we'd love to start off with is one that we actually got to perform with IOC, which is the fabulous "Leron, Leron Sinta". And you've described this piece as a traditional Filipino work song which represents those who are in the fields harvesting fruits. But it's often presented as a children's song, though some sources also refer to the original traditional piece as a courtship song. There's a lot of things going on there.
[00:30:49] Mmhmm...
Giacomo [00:30:49] I guess my first, my first question to you is: what does the song mean to you and why did you choose to to set it?
Saunder [00:30:56] Well, it was one of those songs that you just grow up with in the Philippines. Like, you learn it in nursery school. It's just, it's just one... It's in your "M.A.P.E.H." Book. A "mapeh" is music, arts and P.E. - P.E. And health. Yeah. Because... It's so weird. But the way that the Philippine educational system is set up is that music, arts and physical education are grouped together.
Giacomo [00:31:22] So my [laughter]... my physical education teacher in high school was also my music teacher. I mean, I don't necessarily agree with the system. I think it's very flawed, but that's just how it worked. And all physical education teachers needed to learn music because they need to teach it. Of course, for those of us who did private lessons, we knew that sometimes they taught it incorrectly [laughter]. So I would be that student who... that annoying student who's like, "Um, excuse me. That's not quite right!" [laughter from Zane]
Giacomo [00:32:00] That's amazing! I can't imagine my high school PE teacher being like, "All right, it's time for orchestra now!" You know like... yeah. [laughter]
Zane [00:32:08] [laughter] Seriously, I'm picturing like 30 kids running laps, all singing Bach or something.
Saunder [00:32:13] Yeah, well, the weird thing is in my high school, for example, the choir director did not teach music. She was like a contract, an independent contractor. Of course she knew more about it, but she was just not interested in being in the classroom and teaching it to the kids. But she's just interested to, like, play piano and direct the choir at that time. And she's the one who's the most qualified to teach music theory.
Saunder [00:32:46] But "Leron, Leron Sinta" is one of those pieces. And I'm always, you know, when I was in the Philippine Madrigal Singers, the group would also have resident composers and arrangers to arrange for a variety of things - sometimes it's like a pop music arrangement, sometimes the folk music arrangements, sometimes it's an original work. And "Leron, Leron Sinta" was just a fun piece that I grew up singing in choir, in the Philippine Madrigal singers. And so when I moved to the U.S., I think it was 2013, at that time I was still at Berklee, the Philippine Madrigal Singers was going to tour here and I was part of the organizing team as an alumnus of the group. And at their stop in Boston, I was like, "I wanna arrange this for them so that they can perform it here."
Saunder [00:33:40] Here's Saunders' arrangement of that traditional tune, "Leron, Leron Sinta", performed by the International Orange Chorale of San Francisco. [00:33:48] [Music excerpt: a surge of notes spills out from the choir by repeatedly singing the name "Leron". A jaunty tune from the sopranos describes a bucolic scene of picking papaya fruit and tamarind. The men of the choir then take up the tune to boast about how brave they are and how many knives and guns they have - only to admit that their real enemy is a plate of noodles.]
Giacomo [00:37:21] How in the world is it possibly a children's song and a courtship song and a work song? I mean, I feel like I'm missing something in the language there. Are there lots of little different ways to read the text? Is that what I'm missing as a non-native speaker?
Saunder [00:37:35] I think it's because of the verses, the different verses. Like the first verse, for example, talks about the fruit of a papaya tree, talks about harvesting in the fields, talks about climbing that tree and falling over. And then the second verse talks about picking "sampalok". I think "sampalok" is tamarind, but I might be incorrect. But picking "manampalok" is, is a conjugate saying that means to pick the tamarind fruit or to pick the "sampalok".
Saunder [00:38:15] And so it's a little bit about farming, but then you get to that lush section, that low section where you're suddenly talking about the guy that you will love, or the man that you will love, is someone who's strong and has guns and knives and stuff like that. So, you know, if you think about it, it's almost like "ensalada".
Zane [00:38:38] [laughter] It's just kind of about life.
Giacomo [00:38:39] It's fun! Yeah. I mean, I was imagining there being something about picking fruit or something that felt like there might be a little coyness to it, which is very sweet.
Saunder [00:38:47] Yeah!
Giacomo [00:38:47] But it's also... it's very rhythmical and it's very rhythmically precise. Which reminds me of another of your compositions, one that we just saw a new video release for, "Dindikan", and I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.
Saunder [00:39:01] [pronouncing phonetically] "din-DEE-kan"
Giacomo [00:39:02] [imitatively] "din-DEE-kan"
Saunder [00:39:02] Yes.
Giacomo [00:39:03] Incredibly rhythmically precise piece. Very cool. But, but recorded virtually because of... given the current circumstances. What were the challenges of recording such a rhythmically precise piece?
Saunder [00:39:18] Well, I'm very blessed to work with the staff singers that I have at U.U. Santa Monica. This is something that we actually did as an anthem for our service last Sunday, which is about play and imagination. Being very Unitarian Universalist, we have sometimes these, like, uh... thematic broad strokes of a brush pieces. And I thought, "Oh, this would be a great one to record!" My... The singers at U.U. Santa Monica are incredibly talented. They also happen to sing in Tonality because we're...
Giacomo [00:39:56] Hmmm, how'd that happen? [laughter]
Saunder [00:39:57] ... very incestuous that way. [laughter from Zane] But Chloe, Jyvonne and Ben, they not only have the experience of being session singers, meaning they are very, very used to singing with click tracks and phrasing and doing... and being musical over that grid. But they're also very open to like singing in different languages and learning in different languages. Chloe and Jyvonne are American, Ben is Taiwanese-American, for example. And so, sometimes it just takes an... the attitude of being willing to to delve into something unfamiliar. And they were just, they were just willing to do that. And we've been working doing this virtual anthem thing for more than a year now. So right about now, I'm very used to working with them and they're used to working with me and singing with the click track and recording remotely and then, you know, putting it all together and mixing it. So that's what "Dindikan" - that's what we did for "Dindikan".
Giacomo [00:41:17] What is the piece about? Maybe you can tell folks a little bit about it so we can play the piece.
Saunder [00:41:21] So the piece is an adaptation of a Maguindanawan folk theme. Maguindanao is somewhere in the southern part of the Philippines. The Philippines is divided into three major island groups. The top part is Luzon where Manila is. Visayas is in the middle part, where Cebu is, where the Spanish first landed, and where the explorer Ferdinand Magellan, the Portuguese explorer, got killed because he was there [laughter]... exploring. And then one of the native - "datu" is what we call it - the tribal leader, his name is Lapu Lapu, which is also the name of a fish [laughter]. Lapu Lapu killed Ferdinand Magellan there and then the southern part is Mindanao. And Maguindanao is part of Mindanao. And so "Dindikan" is... I think it roughly translates to "If I were a bird, I would fly away so that I will leave my sorrows behind." Earlier, we mentioned something about Asian polyphony. So this is a perfect example of Asian polyphony. There's definitely a lot of that imitation of gong instruments here.
Zane [00:42:41] And it sounded like each singer was doubling. Was... So there were four singers, but it was an eight part piece. Is that right?
Saunder [00:42:49] Yeah, there is an eight part piece with a stratospheric obbligato, two soprano obbligato in the end.
Zane [00:42:58] Yeah. Yeah, stratospheric. That's a good... that's a good word for it [laughter from Saunder]. That's, that's impressive - the fact that they doubled their parts. That was... yeah.
Saunder [00:43:07] I'm so lucky to be working with them. They're incredible professionals. I would say that this cluster, very, extremely high cluster is not uncommon in Philippine choral music. There are several other pieces that use this. Eudenice Palaruan's "Koyu No Tebulul", for example, which is also about birds and there's a lot of imitation of bird sounds - they're like very Janequin-type things. And "Kruhay" by Benny Castillon also has... it has a high "E", a soprano obbligato at the end. And when I said earlier that Filipino choirs love to be virtuosic, this is exactly what I mean.
Zane [00:43:50] Here's the recent recording Saunder made with his talented L.A. choral friends of "Dindikan". The video is available on his Facebook page, if you want to check it out. [00:44:00] [Music excerpt: a female singer imitates the tolling of bells, followed by other singers imitating the sound of gongs. A solo singer sings a doleful tune expressing her wish to leave all sorrows behind by transforming into a bird. The music grows increasingly complex with layering of sounds and further imitation of percussion instruments until the song ends in a soaring climax of high notes over a rhythmic cadence.]
Zane [00:47:38] Let's talk about another piece that you wanted to share with our listeners called "The New Colossus"...
Saunder [00:47:45] Mmhmm...
Zane [00:47:45] ... And we thought we might try something new today on In Unison by listening to it in segments and discussing those pieces - uh, those pieces - those parts of the piece with you while we listen to it. So maybe what we'll do is we'll play it from the beginning and we'll listen for a little bit. And then I'll pause the recording and we can take a listen. What do you think, Giacomo?
Giacomo [00:48:06] I think that sounds great. And maybe even before we get into listening to it, the actual piece, I mean, the title alone gives us a little bit of a clue of what we're about to hear. So the title of the piece is "The New Colossus". And I think from listening to the text, it's a reference to the Statue of Liberty...
Saunder [00:48:22] Mmhmm...
Giacomo [00:48:22] Is that right? So this is a piece that's very much about immigration and about folks coming to the United States. So, yeah! Let's give it a listen! [00:48:31] [Music excerpt: a choir sings a disjointed and stuttering melody on the words "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free".]
Giacomo [00:50:15] That's really... That's really lovely! I mean, that piece just starts right off. You're chugging along. I mean, chugging feels like it's the right word because it feels a little bit like that. You're rhythmic play with the language: "give me your poor, your tired" the [singing the part from previous excerpt] "poor, poor, poor, poor". I mean, you're feeling this kind of machine come to life - is what I'm what I'm feeling. Maybe, maybe shades of Industrial Revolution America, I'm not sure. But tell us a little bit about what was happening there. Was there a sense of imitation that you were also trying to bring in stylistically or... What's happening there in that very beginning section?
Saunder [00:50:51] So I think texture-wise, because I've sung so much of this polyphonic music, not only the Asian polyphony that we're talking about, but of course, in the Philippine Madrigal Singers, we also did sing a lot of madrigals and a lot of Renaissance music. And so, I feel like that polyphonic texture is already sort of ingrained in my writing. They're oftentimes... They're a very small portion of my pieces that are written purely homophonically. And maybe that's also because of that a cappella singing tradition in Philippine choirs where, oftentimes when we would go on tours, we don't really have an accompanist with us or we we would sing in different churches in all across Europe that don't necessarily have a piano or something like that. And so a lot of the repertoire, choral repertoire that's borne out of singing in these Philippine groups are typically a cappella. And, and so I think that polyphonic texture, using... segmenting the words and using them as textural elements rather than forefront or foreground elements is one thing.
Saunder [00:52:11] The other thing is that I really wanted to, as someone who's ESL and someone who empathizes with immigrants, who grew up with English as a second language or maybe even as a third language, because English is a third language for me. I spoke Hokkien, Mandarin and Tagalog when I was growing up in the Philippines. But a lot of Filipinos also received education, instruction in school in English, and so they sort of all these play, but that "po-po-poor" or "tuh-tuh-tired" is almost like a stutter. So, you know, I'm imagining every time I enter this country and every time I'm at Customs, Border and Protection and I'm like, "Oh my gosh! Will they detain me? Will I be able to go in?" There's all this, like, anxiety that comes with that. And sometimes if English is your second language, once you're getting that interview, there's no... like sometimes you stutter and you fumble through words. And that's something that I wanted to paint in this initial portion of "The New Colossus". There's also that yearning to breathe free, which uses that [imitating a panting sound]... That's almost like panting: "I'm so tired. I'm tired of this journey. And then I come here and then I continue being tired because the system, the immigration system, is broken and you have to, like, fight your way through that. And there's just so many hurdles to go through.".
Saunder [00:54:02] And so, this is a very different setting of "The New Colossus" than, let's say, Irving Berlin's setting, which is more lush and more homophonic. This is sort of like immigration as we see it in 2017, which is when Trump was elected, which is when the first time I was coming out of my student visa at that time and I was trying to get this three-year artist visa, which requires you to provide different sets of evidence that you have work here, that you're accomplished, that you won awards, that you're published, that people write about you. You have to collect different letters of people vouching for you. And sometimes that's not enough for them. Sometimes they ask you for more. Or sometimes they outright deny you and tell you that "Oh, actually, we don't know who this person is!" - this a Grammy Award winning choral person, because you have immigration officers who have no idea who the people in the choral who’s, you know - the well-known conductors or the groups, the different groups in the choral industry. Like, they wouldn't know that unless you present them with a name like a big, like, top name. They, they wouldn't really know. So it's definitely like a lot of struggle. It's very tiring. And that sort of agitated, anxious feel is something that I wanted to represent in this first portion of "The New Colossus".
Giacomo [00:55:47] So if Irving Berlin is giving us this idealized version of this text, you are giving us the far more realistic and maybe the uglier side of it, warts and all, I mean, what really is actually happening.
Saunder [00:56:00] Well, I think Irving Berlin wrote it at a very different time...
Giacomo [00:56:04] Mmhmm...
Saunder [00:56:05] ... where maybe the immigration process isn't as complicated, especially for Europeans who are, who are integrating into the US. But right now, I think it has gotten more complicated and convoluted and immigrants are almost villainized by coming here because "America First", right? [scoffs].
Giacomo [00:56:30] Whatever that means, exactly.
Zane [00:56:32] Let's go ahead and listen to the rest of Saunders' piece, "The New Colossus", performed by the L.A. Choral Lab on their 2019 album Sonic Visions. [00:56:43] [Music excerpt: a choir sings fleeting, almost improvised melodic units on the word "free", then continues with "the wretched refuse of your teeming shore" - the sound from the choir is distant, disembodied - as if coming from the Statue of Liberty herself.]
Giacomo [01:00:15] You performed this piece with a group - the recording we were just listening to was L.A. Choral Lab, who I believe you have collaborated with and sing with. Tell us a little bit about L.A. Choral Lab.
Saunder [01:00:27] L.A. Choral Lab - I joined this group when I was very early on in, umm, in my L.A. life - so when I just moved to L.A. Michael Alfera went to USC as well. And I think the initial iteration of L.A. Choral Lab involved a lot of USC alumni, particularly singers who were in the a cappella group in USC, which is SoCal Vocals and Reverse Osmosis. I think those were the two major ones. A lot of the singers have then, you know, graduated and at that time were working as session singers, singing in film and TV and commercial music recordings. And they just wanted to get together and sing choral music again. And so that was, that was sort of what the L.A. Choral Lab was before. Of course, right now, the L.A. Choral Lab is a group that actively celebrates L.A. composers, as well as the diverse musical genre that is available for the voice.
Giacomo [01:01:50] And speaking of that L.A. scene, that choral scene that's in L.A., which is now I mean, it feels like it's blossoming. There are so many exceptional groups. One of those groups is a group that you did an arrangement of "True Colors" for, which is Tonality. We've chatted with several of the folks there, Alex and Zanaida and some other folks as well. Exceptional group! "True Colors" - your arrangement was performed by Tonality. It appears on the 2019 album, Sing About It. Why did you choose to set that piece for Tonality?
Saunder [01:02:20] Well, I actually did not set that piece for Tonality.
Giacomo [01:02:25] Aahh!
Saunder [01:02:25] I set that piece for the Philippine Madrigal Singers as well. One of our queer identifying colleagues, singers passed away at the end of I think it was 2013 or something. And I arranged that for the Philippine Madrigal Singers to sing as a tribute. Then, that arrangement already exists and we happened to sing it together in the USC Chamber Singers with Alex and Jenni as well. And then he eventually wanted to program that as one of the initial pieces of Tonality, which is, you know - a group like Tonality initiates the conversations, difficult conversations in various social issues. And one of them is about identity - LGBTQ, two-spirit plus, etc.. Of course, "True Colors" is a song that celebrates that. And so I think it definitely fits perfectly into Tonality's Sing About It album, which I had the pleasure of co-producing also. And I did write a new version for them that included the two soloists that wasn't in the original version.
Giacomo [01:03:54] Got it! I love that. I mean, everyone sort of... if you grew up in the 80s and you were, you know, a Cyndi Lauper fan, I mean, it's very close to my heart. So it was wonderful to see it set. It's really quite beautiful. And I appreciate the two-solo version as well. It's quite lovely.
Saunder [01:04:08] Thank you! I mean, Mario is an amazing soloist. He's just one of the best vocalists here in Southern California.
Zane [01:04:20] Here is Saunder's lovely revised arrangement of "True Colors" performed by Tonality on their debut album, Sing About It. [01:04:29] [Music excerpt: a choir sings a gently swaying introduction to the song and inviting the listener to "Look at all the colors". Two soloists then sing the melody in a soulful, intertwining duet to encourage one to show one's "true colors".]
Zane [01:10:21] So earlier when we were introducing you, we mentioned places where your music is published and two of the sites that we mentioned were MusicSpoke and Muziksea. And I was hoping you might tell our audience a little bit more about those organizations and what they're doing. And because we'd like to champion them as much as possible.
Saunder [01:10:40] Yeah, for sure. So MusicSpoke is less of a publishing house, a traditional sense of a publishing house, and more of a marketplace. I think we are seeing now more and more nowadays that, umm, that print publishing is slowly, umm... dying. That's a very morbid term, but I don't know how else to describe it [laughter]. It's slowly being phased out.
Zane [01:11:13] [laughter] Yeah, I was gonna say this is being phased out. I agree completely. I would much rather go straight to a composer and purchase a digital license and then just print the, print the copies as I need to. Especially as more and more singers in my ensemble are using tablets anyway.
Saunder [01:11:29] Exactly! And then, of course, like during this remote recording era, I never really printed anything. I read things off of my tablet that reduces paper noise. You can use a foot pedal to like when you're doing your lip sync video and your tablet is far away, you don't have to flip pages manually. You can use a Bluetooth pedal to flip pages from a distance. It's all very convenient. And I think as a music director also, the biggest draw for me is that, you know, you can buy it and instantly have it and it'll be emailed to you and you'll have it there. I know that some people still prefer the printed version, but I think that this type of music marketplace is very beneficial for composers as well, because the split in royalties that we get is actually very significant and they don't get to keep any of our copyrights as well. So that is a big thing. I remember my first published work with Santa Barbara Music Publishing where I signed a contract and it was like, "Oh, we get to keep the copyright." And of course, I have a friend and colleague in Boston, Bill Cutter, who mentioned very, very early on when I just moved here to the U.S., he mentioned like, "Oh, there's this publisher who doesn't want to reprint my piece, but they have my, they have my copyright and now I can't do anything about it." And oh, my gosh, that's just... I find that very traumatizing because how can you not own something that you wrote?
Giacomo [01:13:18] It's your work. Yeah!
Saunder [01:13:20] Yeah... Yeah. But that's how traditional publishers did it before. And that's still how major publishers do it, like Boosey and Hawkes and Oxford Music Press. And I think, you know, these music marketplace areas allow for more accessibility and it's just better for the composers at the end of the day.
Saunder [01:13:47] So that's MusicSpoke. Muziksea is very much modeled after MusicSpoke by a group of Singaporean choral musicians, and it is focusing on Southeast Asian choral composers. So that's composers from the Philippines, from Singapore, from Malaysia, Indonesia. They might expand to Vietnam and Thailand soon. I'm not really sure. But as of now, those are the four countries that are majorly represented by the site.
Zane [01:14:27] And who are some of the other composers besides yourself that we could find on Muziksea?
Saunder [01:14:31] So, Jude Roldan is one. Ken Steven, Indonesian composer, and Nilo Alcala is also there. Alejandro Consolacion is also there, Zecheriah Goh of Singapore also there. And many, many others. It's really a collection of pieces that you don't want to miss out on, especially if you're thinking of diversifying your program and seeing what other types of choral music is out there that you could incorporate to your programing. Muziksea is a great resource.
Giacomo [01:15:13] Saunder, looking forward, we're hopefully light at the end of the tunnel here with COVID. We're all getting back together. You just recently went to your first rehearsal, the five year anniversary with Tonality singing in person, which was amazing. What are you most excited about post-COVID? What are you looking forward to?
Saunder [01:15:32] I'm definitely excited to getting back to singing with various groups that I've been singing with. There are several upcoming commissions that I'm writing. I'm writing something for the LA Master Chorale. I'm writing something for the Golden Bridge as well as Seattle Pro Musica, and I'm also working on a short opera for Hex Vocal Ensemble and Brightwork newmusic. So there's really lots to look forward to. I can't wait to travel for some of these premieres, which I do definitely miss doing, and just being with colleagues and singing with colleagues. I think I've missed music making in a live sense, in a live rehearsal room, and not digital in the past year.
Zane [01:16:32] Amen to that! [laughter] And we started you know, we started this conversation earlier. We were talking about food and you mentioned being a foodie and of course, Los Angeles being a really great place to experience some wonderful food. What about, you know, where is the first place you're going to go eat when you can, when you get out post-COVID?
Saunder [01:16:55] Well, I've already been doing that!
Zane [01:16:57] Oh! [laughter]
Saunder [01:16:57] Kinda [laughter]... I would say that one of the most exciting things that I've been to in Los Angeles lately is the Avenue 26 street food in Lincoln Heights. It's this stretch of maybe like a half a mile or mile long stretch of... it's like a night market where there are different vendors. Most of them are Hispanic vendors, most of them sell that type of food. But it's just so good and growing up in Asia, of course, we've, we've had, we grew up around night markets and street food. And so that's something that will always be part of my heart... is that experience of... Yeah! Street food. It's just people do the most innovative things. I mean, we just... If you've had a birria taco, the goat stew taco, it usually comes with a soup, right? And so one of the best things that we were able to eat that night was a birria ramen, which is instant noodle, the ramen cup, and then they use the soup of the birria to cook the ramen. It was so delicious! And then they also had sweet loaded nachos, which is essentially buñuelos, which is like the very...
Giacomo [01:18:31] Donuts!
Saunder [01:18:32] Very thin, crisp cracker, kind of like donuts deep fried. And then they put cinnamon sugar in it, but it's shaped like nachos. And then she tops it off with various like syrups and fruits. And it was so...
Giacomo [01:18:49] Just a little... Just a little light snack.
Saunder [01:18:52] It's so good.
Giacomo [01:18:52] It's a little... Yeah, it's a little... little kale
Saunder [01:18:54] Yeah! It's a little, light snack. Yeah. [laughter from Giacomo] It's like diabetes in a bowl. [laughter]
Zane [01:19:00] Sounds delicious!
Giacomo [01:19:02] Umm, Saunder, where can, so that folks can find you, where can folks find you online?
Saunder [01:19:06] Yeah, I have a website. It's pretty comprehensive and I think I update it all the time and it also links to all of my social. So my website is saunderchoi.com and you can follow all the different icons. They lead to my YouTube page, my SoundCloud, my Instagram, if you're interested in that, and my Facebook. And I usually do all of my updates through any of those social media platforms. And that is, I think, the best way to find my music.
Zane [01:19:43] Well, this has been really fantastic to feel like we've gotten to know you a little bit better and understand a little bit more about Filipino choral music and the traditions that exist in the Philippines. It's part of the world that's always fascinated me. It's high on my list. Southeast Asia is high on my list as a spot to go visit when I can start traveling again. But yeah, it's been great to have you on the show and we will put all the appropriate links in our show notes and we'll be playing lots of excerpts of your music as well when we publish this episode. So thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate it!
Saunder [01:20:19] Thank you so much for having me again! It's a pleasure!
Zane [01:20:22] Let's end today's episode with a taste of Saunders' compositional color palette that is somewhat different from the other pieces we've played today. On his website, Saunder says in setting the words from Matthew 11:28, I wanted the words of Jesus Christ to take a more humanist approach outside the realm of organized religion. "Come to me, all who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest" is an act of kindness and welcome that should extend to all humans, regardless of gender, belief, orientation, race, class, immigration status, etc.. Here is "Give You Rest" performed by the L.A. Choral Lab. [01:21:04] [Music excerpt: a choir invites all to approach by singing a repeating motif on the word "come". A placid melody summons all to rest and unburden themselves.]
Outro [01:22:58] Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of the In Unison podcast. Be sure to check out episode extras and subscribe at inunison podcast dot com. You can follow us on all social media @inunisonpod. And leave us a review on Apple podcasts to let us know what you think!
Chorus Dolores [01:23:15] Slide whistles and piccolo's polished by Chorus Dolores, who can't wait for the sheet music for next season!
Credits [01:23:27] In Unison is produced and recorded by Mission: Orange Studios. Our transcripts have been diligently edited by IOCSF member and friend of the pod, Fausto Daos, and our theme music is Mr. Puffy, written by Avi Bortnick, arranged by Paul Kim, and performed by the Danish vocal jazz ensemble Dynamic on their debut album, This Is Dynamic. Special thanks to Paul Kim for permission. Please be sure to check them out at www.dynamicjazz.dk.