S2 E11: Joy in Resistance: Abby Dobson and Brooke Williams of the Resistance Revival Chorus
This week, we’re chatting with artists and composers Abby Dobson and Brooke Williams, both members of the Resistance Revival Chorus, about their work with the group and how choirs can affect social change.
Music excerpts
"This Joy” by Shirley Caesar
“Woke Up This Morning (With My Mind Stayed on Freedom)” by Rev. Robert Wesby
“All You Fascists Bound To Lose” by Woody Guthrie, Rhiannon Giddens, solo
“Say Her Name” by Abby Dobson
“Joy in Resistance” by Abena Koomson-Davis
About the Resistance Revival Chorus
The Resistance Revival Chorus is a collective of more than 60 women and non-binary singers, who join together to breathe joy and song into the resistance, and to uplift and center women’s voices, especially the voices of black women and women of color. Members are touring musicians, film and television actors, Broadway performers, solo recording artists, gospel singers, political activists, educators, filmmakers, artists, mothers, and more, representing a multitude of identities, professions, creative backgrounds, and activist causes.
The Resistance Revival Chorus was founded in the wake of the 2017 Women's March and strives to center women in music and address how historically marginalized women have been in the music industry. They’ve backed Ke$ha at the GRAMMYs, performed on The Tonight Show with Jim James, sung Spanish lullabies to detained migrant children outside a New York holding facility, and been shouted-out on Twitter by hometown hero Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. When they’re not performing on stages like Carnegie Hall and the Apollo, The Resistance Revival Chorus regularly hits the NYC streets, advocating for social justice across the spectrum. From standing in solidarity with the Movement for Black Lives and calling to defund the police, The Resistance Revival Chorus has been involved in many activist causes including reproductive rights, the anti-muslim ban, Climate Change, LGBTQIA+ rights at PRIDE and attending the March For Our Lives. The RRC brings music to the movement.
Episode references
Brooke Williams: This is authentic (Instagram, Twitter)
Woke Up this Morning (With My Mind Stayed on Freedom) - Live at Pioneer Works
Theme Song: Mr. Puffy by Avi Bortnik, arr. by Paul Kim. Performed by Dynamic
Episode Transcript
Intro [00:00:03] Hello and welcome to In Unison, the podcast for choral conductors, composers and choristers, where we interview members of our choral community to talk about new music, new and upcoming performances, and discuss the interpersonal and social dynamics of choral organizations in the San Francisco Bay Area and beyond. We are your hosts. I am Zane Fiala, Artistic Director of the International Orange Chorale of San Francisco. And I'm Giacomo DiGrigoli, a tenor in IOCSF, the Golden Gate Men's Chorus and the San Francisco Symphony Chorus. And this is In Unison.
Zane [00:00:43] This week. We're chatting with Abby Dobson and Brooke Williams, both members of the Resistance Revival Chorus. We talk about their work with the RRC and also about how choirs can affect social change. Let's go ahead and start off with a musical introduction to the Resistance Revival Chorus. Here's the title track from their brand new album, This Joy.
[00:01:20] [Music excerpt: A chorus of treble voices joyfully sings in a gospel style while clapping in rhythm, joined by a soloist singing in a call-and-answer manner. The lyrics are, "This joy that I have, the world didn't give it to me" (repeated several times). Then the verse is tagged with, "The world didn't give it, the world can't take it away." Verses two through four are, "This strength that I have, the world didn't give it to me"; "This love that I have, the world didn't give it to me"; and "This pride that I have, the world didn't give it to me" and each is followed by the same tag. Much more quietly, in a hushed tone, the fifth verse is sung with the lyrics: "This peace that I have, the world didn't give it to me," also followed by the tag. The final verse is exuberant and joyful, returning to the first line of lyrics, "This joy that I have, the word didn't give it to me; the world didn't give it, the world can't take it away"].
Zane [00:01:20] All right, today we are talking with two members of the Resistance Revival Chorus, which is a collective of more than 60 women and non-binary singers who join together to breathe joy and song into the resistance and to uplift and center women's voices. The chorus members are mothers, grandmothers, touring musicians, film and television actors, Broadway performers, solo recording artists, gospel singers, political activists, educators, filmmakers, artists and more, representing a multitude of identities, professions, creative backgrounds and activist causes. The RRC centers women in music and addresses how historically marginalized women have been in the music industry. Our first guest is Abby Dobson, and Abby is a sonic conceptual performing artist and composer. She's also an activist and scholar and is artist in residence with the African-American Policy Forum, co-founded and led by noted legal scholar and activist Kimberlé Williams Crenshaw. Abby was a 2017 change fellow with the Laundromat Project and performs with Black women artists for Black Lives Matter. Recently, Abby was commissioned by the Laundromat Project in conjunction with Park Avenue Armories Symposium on an initiative celebrating the 100 year anniversary of women's suffrage in the U.S.. Abby currently serves as president of the National Organization for Women's New York City chapter and is an advisory board member of The Other Side, a theater based global drama exchange program for girls. Before accepting her artists' calling, Abby received a juris doctorate degree from Georgetown and a bachelor's from Williams College in political science and history. Currently, Abby is a master of arts candidate in political science at the Graduate Center of CUNY and is an independent scholar whose research interests focus primarily on Black feminist political thought and practice the connection between art and politics and the intersections of race, gender and class in the imagination, consumption, production, promotion and distribution of music and the impact of those intersections on citizenship. Welcome, Abby.
Abby [00:06:48] Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here.
Giacomo [00:06:51] And I get the distinct pleasure of introducing my old friend Brooke Williams. Brooke Williams is a mother, activist, musician and blogger, living and working in Brooklyn, New York. A national organizer of the 2017 Women's March, she is a member of the Resistance Revival Chorus, a collective of women singing protest songs in tribute to the historical importance of music in protest movements. She is currently helping to run the Demo Crew, a group of Like-Minded Democracy lovers, reaching out to voters all over the country to give them the information they need to ensure their voices are heard. Brooke blogs about parenting, style, culture, and keeping it real at thisisauthentic.com and also creates content for various blogs, websites and social media platforms. She also writes and records songs about all sorts of things under the name The New Black and has recorded and performed with many bands, including The Silver Apples and Beastie Boys. Welcome, Brooke.
Brooke [00:07:48] Thank you very much for having me. It's awesome to be here.
Giacomo [00:07:52] It's so good to see you. And it's so good to meet you, Abby.
Abby [00:07:56] Awesome to meet you.
Giacomo [00:07:57] One of the things we love doing here at In Unison is we kick off every chat we have with new folks, especially new friends and old with an icebreaker. And this one's an oldie but goodie. But let's say you're throwing a dinner party of folks who are either living or deceased. Question for both of you. Who are you inviting and what are you serving for dinner?
Brooke [00:08:17] So I was actually thinking a lot about this, like way too long, actually, and I kept thinking, OK, are we having this dinner party together? Is it like each one of us is having a dinner party? Do we want a small dinner party where it's just one conversation? We want a lot of people. And I feel like for me, the two things that in any of those scenarios, I would want Toni Morrison because she always made people feel good about themselves and comfortable and she could kind of see people wherever they were. And definitely food wise, I'd go sort of soul food, but with lots of vegetarian sides so that everyone has something to eat. And then other than that, I don't know Abby, who else should come?
Abby [00:09:12] Oh, my goodness. So, Brooke, I went on the other side of this right where I like composed this entire list of people that I would love to have, and I won't say everybody, but I will say a few since you asked the question. I think it's a great question. It's a beautiful question and one that I will steal. But in addition to Toni Morrison, who was on the top of my list, I would say members of the Combined River Collective, Kimberlé Crenshaw, Maya Angelou, Adibi Wells, Fannie Lou Hamer, my grandmother, Frances Lamar, Clark Burrell, James Baldwin, Ella Baker, Sarah Vaughan, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Karameh Weems, Harriet Tubman, Jesus, Sojourner Truth, Queen Nanny, Miss Lou (I'm Jamaican), Sweet Honey in the Rock, Audrey Lord, Kara Walker, my mother, and just a bunch of other people. And as far as, you know, I'm trying to spare you guys that there are more people. But I'll spare. And in terms of food, Ackee and Saltfish.
Zane [00:10:26] Yeah.
Abby [00:10:29] As an ode to my Jamaican roots. Stew peas and rice, salmon for those who don't want to do meat, but lots of vegetables cooked very soulfully. I totally agree, Brooke. Some cornbread—nod to my US roots—and some roasted chicken, you know, keeping it simple.
Zane [00:10:49] Yeah, I love it. My wife is actually Jamaican as well. And so I'm very familiar with Ackee and Saltfish. For our audience, ackee is a fruit. It's actually the national fruit of Jamaica and it grows in these bright red pods. But the fruit on the inside that's edible is it looks kind of like scrambled eggs and has a similar texture and that's how it's treated. Typically, you would put it in a pan and warm it up with some salt fish and have that for your breakfast with a little Scotch bonnet pepper in there as well.
Abby [00:11:22] Absolutely. I can't leave that out.
Giacomo [00:11:26] I don't know I don't know what I need to do to get an invite to this party, but I will do it. It sounds like it's going to be a lot of fun.
Brooke [00:11:33] I also like Jesus and James Baldwin as being our honorary male guests. You know, it was interesting that I thought about who would I want. I thought, you know, I think I'd rather have an all female dinner party because there's something about that. It sort of alleviates the sort of is are people going to start trying to flirt or people are going to start trying to, which man am I going to have? What's that energy going to do? And I have enjoyed spending so much time with so many women in the chorus. It's been a really interesting and really kind of amazing affirmation of the strength of sisterhood and female relationships, which is not to in any way play down relationships between anybody else. And I have all sorts of friends that identify across the entire spectrum. But I thought for this one, if I was going to pick a type and somehow narrow it down, I would go all women, but I feel like Jesus and James Baldwin would be the token to have.
Giacomo [00:12:40] Two beautiful, two beautiful men of color.
Brooke [00:12:42] Exactly.
Abby [00:12:44] Yes.
Zane [00:12:46] Well, since we just touched on the chorus, why don't we dive right into that? And maybe, Brooke, you can tell us a little bit about, you know, what is the Resistance Revival Chorus? How was it founded? When was it founded? You know, and how you guys got involved?
Brooke [00:13:02] So the Resistance Revival Chorus was basically it was founded by several members of... Who were original national organizers of the Women's March in 2017. So basically about six months into the Trump administration when it really sunk in that this was going to be a just a constant onslaught of one thing after the other; the Muslim ban, there's the family separation. I mean, it was just like one thing after another. And in order to be really present and really active, it's exhausting. And then I'll list the women because their names really deserve to be to be listed: Sarah Sophie Flicker, Ginny Suss, Jenna Lauter, Paola Mendoza, Nelini Stamp, Shruti Ganguly and Alyssa Klein, who are all very, very active in Women's March and in those early days and really kind of trying to figure out how to instill energy and hope when it started to feel like, oh my God, like are we actually going to be able to make it through these four years still standing. And a lot of a lot of those women are very sort of involved in other cultural aspects. Ginny Suss has done a lot in the music business and everyone was very aware of the importance and the central role that music has played in so many social movements. And the idea was we really need to bring that voice to this iteration of the Women's Movement and to sort of continue the long tradition of all of these incredible artists who have come before us and to try to both shine a light on their work and also potentially create some new work that speaks to the present. And so they decided, let's just get some of our friends together. Who do you know, and there were maybe twenty, twenty five of us that showed up at Sarah Sophie Flickers' dining room table in Brooklyn Heights in the spring, late spring of 2017. And just went around the table and it was an incredible mixture of activists who are interested in exploring musicality, musicians who wanted to explore activism. Just friends who could carry a tune, who really were frustrated with feeling like they didn't have anything that they could do and how could they make a difference. And we just started singing and it really kind of mushroomed from there. There was another meeting and it was kind of that no one knew is just going to be something casual. Is it going to become something serious? But very early on, the kind of incredible feeling of community and bonding and strength and just, why do we, just at least I felt all the sudden hopeful in a way that I had not felt at all in the past, the sort of six months before, and I realized that this can become a really powerful voice. And then we did an action, a sort of a flash mob, in a way, in Times Square and videotaped it. And it went viral, which was kind of amazing. And then I feel like suddenly it was just, oh, these people want you to sing. These people... We started being invited to appear in various marches and demonstrations, but also Carnegie Hall and singing at benefits for various organizations who we felt sort of aligned with. And it really kind of spiraled from there. How is that? It was sort of an origin story, I guess.
Giacomo [00:17:31] Great! Abby?
Abby [00:17:32] No, I think, Brooke, you captured it amazingly well. I couldn't have said it any better myself. You know, I think, you know, I was at that meeting at Sarah Sophie's house around her beautiful dining table and at the first action in Times Square. And I remember seeing on Facebook, you know, this call for singers which is what I responded to. And a couple of people suggested that I, you know, try to be a part of the chorus because different people were hearing about it. Ginny Suss, as Brooke said, has done a lot of work in the music and the commercial music industry and put the word out on Facebook to many people who are parts of various communities that she is a part of. And it was just amazing to... I had wanted to... I was feeling the need to be part of a woman's chorus, a chorus of female voices. I had sort of spoke that into my you know, we all have things that we want, that we sort of write about or put out into the universe. And that was a period of time when I was saying to myself, I really want to sing and with women in partnership with women and be around women's voices. And sure enough, this came up and it's been an awesome experience, the way in which this chorus serves as a force, an aesthetic force. And the whole point of those people who started the chorus, those amazing women who started the chorus, was to create a counterbalance and a counterweight, rather, to what was coming out of the White House. And I would say that the chorus has been very successful. Because that person is no longer in the White House.
Zane [00:19:32] Let's hear those women's voices serving as an anesthetic force for change. Singing "Woke up this morning with my mind stayed on freedom."
[00:19:46] [Music Excerpt: The chorus begins singing on "ooh" in three-part harmony, slowly moving the chords around a simple melody sung by a soloist amidst the chords. A soloist with a deep, rich alto tone then takes over with the lyrics: "Well I woke up this mornin' with my mind." The chorus joins the soloist and they sing the lyrics, "stayed on freedom." This line is repeated several times by all voices, ending eventually with the word "hallelujah." The song then picks up in tempo and adds off-beat clapping. Each verse is begun with the soloist alone and is then joined by the full chorus. Verse two's lyrics are, "Well I'm walkin' and talkin' with my mind, stayed on freedom. Hallelujah." The soloist ad libs while the chorus sings. Verse three: "Well there ain't no harm with your mind when it's stayed on freedom. Hallelujah." Rhythmically, the chorus then chants "walk, walk" multiple times followed by the line "With your mind on freedom." The final verse adds enthusiastic cheers from the chorus, with the soloist and chorus singing the lyrics, "Well I sing and shout with my mind stayed on freedom." A final two repetitions of "Hallelujah" is joyfully rendered by all voices.]
Giacomo [00:22:03] I want to follow up on something, Brooke, that you mentioned, which was that you made this first appearance in Times Square and then things started snowballing. It went viral. There was a pick up and suddenly you were being invited to different places to perform. Why do you suppose that was? And does it have something to do with singing specifically?
Brooke [00:24:18] Well, I think that there is something. I mean, the real answer is probably like I you know, I'm not an expert. Who knows, really? But I do think that there's something about singing and singing in community, that singing together in a group that brings the sense of community and it was something that we desperately needed and still do need and is so important. But I think that it's something that people... We just really needed it. It was like we'd been kind of knocked down and everyone's kind of scattered and the idea was to kind of bring that sense of cohesion and also the sense of joy and and all of the songs are a combination of being empowering, but also joyful. And joy, not in this kind of silly, happy, like surface level, but this kind of deep, profound, powerful joy. And we constantly refer to a quote: "Joy is an act of resistance." And we talk about joy being an act of resistance. And that is a central theme and central sort of philosophy around which we really... Which really motivates us to do the work that we do. So the idea is that if, and this is something that I often say to my daughter, I say, if the bad guys win, if we're so sad and depressed that we just stay in bed, that's them winning. So the way that we can continue to stand up is to just show them, you know what, we're still here. We're still joyful. You're not taking that away from us. And that is something that, countless times I've watched audiences really sort of brighten up and get excited and feel like, OK, yes, yes, we're going to call our senators and yes, we're going to do this and we're definitely going to go out and vote. And it's sort of this you know, I mean, in a way, it's it's you could even say we're cheerleaders, the sort of profound sense of the word, which is like rallying the team, like getting everybody motivated to do the work because there's a hell of a lot of work to be done. And so if we're doing it with a smile on our face and feeling like we're in it together, that's the reason we're doing what we're doing. We love the world and we're trying to make it a better place for everyone. So I feel like you can just tell. You can, I mean, if you look at the video in Times Square and you look at the people, the shots of the people who are kind of coming and being like, hey, what is this? And they all sort of start to smile and kind of get into it. And that's, you know, sort of that's what's infectious. And the more that happens, the more people want it to happen.
Giacomo [00:27:30] I have to say, I had a similar reaction when I looked at the track list on the CD, which is called This Joy. So, quite apropos. And there's a track, I think, that's called "All You Fascists About to Lose." And I thought, oh, gosh, what's this going to be like? Sounds like it's really heavy. And this is one of the most joyful, happy things. And I'm like clapping along being like, yes, you are. That is exactly what's going to happen. And it's fantastic. It's just full of such joy.
Abby [00:27:57] I just wanted to add to what Brooke just said. There's a quote, and I was looking for it while you were talking, I was like, there is this quote that you're making me think of by Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon that speaks to the the particular thing about singing that is so resonant with people who come in contact with it and one of the reasons why, you know, over 60 women, non-binary individuals, coming together and lifting their voices together is is is so significant. And the quote is: "Sound is a way to extend the territory you can affect." So people can walk into you way before they can get close to your body. And so any time and anybody who comes into that space where you've been singing, as long as you're singing, they cannot change the air in that space. The song will maintain the air as your territory. And for me, that's kind of one of the really important things about singing. You know, there's this energy. The body is the vessel, the container, and there's nothing there's no mediation, it is it is you reverberating with bodies around you. And that energy... People feel that. There's something unique about voices lifted up, either with words or without words. The energy, the waves, the vibrations. I don't know what it is, it's beyond our ability to really express it in words. But we all know what it feels like when we feel it. And I think that's why, in my mind, singing is such an important tool for having conversations that we need to have.
Giacomo [00:30:04] Let's put some more of that good intention out into the world. Here's the resistance revival chorus singing "All You Fascists Bound to Lose," by Woody Guthrie.
[00:30:24] [Music excerpt: A small bluegrass band of drums, guitar, fiddle and bass begin playing an upbeat tune, joined by a soloist singing the lyrics, "I'm gonna tell you fascists, you sure might be surprised. There's people in this world and we're getting organized. You're bound to lose, you fascists bound to lose." The full choir then joins, singing the chorus: "All you fascists bound to lose," (3x) "You bound to lose, you fascists bound to lose." In true bluegrass style, the fiddle plays a short solo between verses. The soloist comes back in singing, "There's people from every nation marching side by side. They're marching 'cross the fields where a million fascists died. You down to lose, you fascists down to lose." Then the choir returns with the chorus of the song. Another solo from the fiddle. Repeat of the chorus several more times with a few flourishes from the soloist.]
Giacomo [00:31:27] I love that description and it makes me think about the greater choral community in general and at large, because I think that you both have described the importance of singing as a somatic experience with one another; the political importance of it. But also it makes me think about how both different and unique the RRC is in the landscape of sort of other groups that are out there. And it makes me wonder, we had a conversation with Vince Peterson of Choral Chameleon, who's aiding in breaking down barriers to music education and rethinking the idea of choral arts from every perspective, from listeners and musicians. And you all are representing the sort of resistance to the status quo, which is wonderful. But I wonder... The question for both of you, have either of you met with resistance from the choral community? Do people put you in a box because of how you present yourselves in what some may consider nontraditional concerts? Have you ever met with that sort of resistance?
Abby [00:34:36] I'm not familiar with that kind of resistance, to be honest with you. I think, you know, as a member of the Resistance Revival Chorus and individually also doing music that I hope will make the world a better place. Not so much focused on what other people are saying about what it is the Chorus does. Focusing on doing the work, which I think is a part of, you know, the traditions that the Chorus comes out of. And also part of the point of the chorus. Not to say we're not responsive to, you know... It's important to be a good listener as an art maker, so I'm not saying that it's not important to listen, but I think the focus is not so much on critiques of us, I haven't heard any, to be quite honest. But we're really, you know, set on doing the work that we think is important as a collective and as individuals, particularly during this time. And there's no real point of focusing on, you know, image is important on that kind of energy. If it's something for us to learn from, then I'm all for it. I'm all ears. But if it's not, I'll shut it down. [laughs]
Brooke [00:36:08] Yeah, and I feel like I think that we have just begun to really be noticed by the greater choral community through this record that's come out. And I think that and I sort of feel like it's just in the past, maybe like two or three months that I've noticed that we're starting to get more attention from people like you guys. And we talked to... I spoke to a woman in Brighton at a radio station who has a show about different different choral groups. And I felt actually really excited to be included in this greater community that I was really only just becoming aware of. I was like, well, there's all this. This is amazing and sort of thinking about different. We've been doing, we have done some festival shows, but with more pop and hip hop and other groups and folk more. And the idea of actually being in, say, like a festival that's a choral music festival would be amazing. And I feel like it's a great... It's like a whole other world that I, you know, after my high school choir career have not been have not been super aware of. So I think that it's exciting for us to be included in this greater universe. But at the same time, we're doing what we're doing. And if doing what we do can be included in this greater universe, then that's amazing. Then if not, that's also fine.
Giacomo [00:37:59] You both also represent some really interesting spectrum of musicianship, which, by the way, we love on this podcast and we're huge fans of seeing where things are going and we want what's new and sort of what's interesting to absolutely always have a place. I think everything you're saying is part of that. But for Abby, we described you at the beginning of the episode as being a sonic conceptualist performing artist and composer. Those are words I'm not familiar with. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about what that means.
Abby [00:38:34] Well, to me, it means... I've seen the word conceptual associated with visual artists, moreso. Sonic for people who do soundscapes. For me, I wanted to sort of rename myself, you know? For a long time, I just thought of myself as a singer and then as a singer-songwriter, and a singing musician. Sonic conceptual performing artist/composer resonates with me because it captures the extent to which, when I am creating a piece of music or approaching performing a piece of music that I haven't created, there's a lot of thought that goes into it. There's a lot of homework that goes into it. I'm thinking about conceptually what I'm trying to get across, what the point is of the piece, or my approach to the piece. And so I wanted a phrase or a naming that to me connotes the gravitas or the weight of what it is that I'm bringing to it as an artist. And I find that in our culture, when people say singer, there is a conception that does not bring a certain gravitas or weight or importance to what is being done. And I've always felt that singers bring so much to an equation, whether they're singing in a chorus or singing something that somebody else has written or something that they've written. You know, for instance, I think that... One of my favorite singers of all time, Whitney Houston, was, in fact, a songwriter, although she's not credited as such. Because whenever she sang a song, she essentially changed that song and nobody sang it like her. Nobody will ever sing it like her. And so I say all that to say that there's a level of you know, it was my way of sort of like putting on a gown, so to speak, or a really regal fabric or cloth, to dress what it is that I do as an artist. To let people know that what I do is important and thoughtful and as worthy as someone who calls himself a conceptual artist in a visual art context. And the last thing I'll say about that is I think about the way in which we value different forms of art. And I don't think that as a culture, we value sonic art in the way that we do other forms of art, whether that's, you know, expository writing, literature, poetry. You know. Visual art in terms of what we will pay an artist who is sonic based. And I think that we just need to approach it differently, and I wanted to name myself differently in order to help to realize that.
Giacomo [00:42:05] That leads me to ask a little bit about your process in composing. We first came across you through your exceptional composition, "Say Her Name,".
Abby [00:42:18] Thank you.
Giacomo [00:42:18] Which we had the opportunity to play a small snippet of a few weeks ago. And I'm hoping we'll be able to play a bit more of it in this episode. But I wanted to spend a moment talking about that piece and sort of where did this piece originate for you and what did you consider when writing that piece?
Abby [00:42:37] That's such a great question. And that piece is about something that I hold in such reverence, which is the memory of Black women and girls who have been killed by police officers, one, or who've been killed by acts of state violence or intimate partner violence. What I considered were stories. Were stories of women and girls who had been killed by police officers. I was inspired by the work of Kimberlé Crenshaw and the African American Policy Forum. There is a moment when I decided that I wanted to write that song. I had been a fan of Kimberlé Crenshaw's work for a long time, influenced by "Intersectionality" that she coined many years ago, and began to follow in about 2014-15, the work of the African American Policy Forum. I began to follow her work around recognizing that when you look at police brutality, that so much of the narrative, so much about, so much of the discussion focused on Black men. And there was not enough conversation around Black women who are also getting killed. There was a call to a company AAPF at a march. I think it was in... I can't remember exactly when it was, but it was after Mike Brown had been killed, after Eric Garner had been killed. And I went to just help them hold up the banner. I didn't know anyone in the organization. I just went to Harlem to walk with them to march down 5th Avenue. And at the time, I was helping them hold the banner and marching down Fifth Avenue. And most of the names that were being called out were names of men. In fact, all of them that were being called out were names of men. And I remember hearing "Glory" by John Legend and Common on this boombox as we were walking down, and just feeling so emotional in that moment. And in that moment, I wanted to write a song that would honor the lives of Black women and girls, that could to create that level of of of emotion and connection and empathy for their lives, that "Glory" did, generally, for, you know, Black people advocating for civil rights and the civil rights/human rights of of Black men killed by police officers. And so that's what started it. I wanted to write a song and went home and put pen to paper. And there was a report that AAPF put out. I read all of the stories in that report. I sat with it. I listened to news reports about women who'd been killed by police officers. I went back in my own mind and remembered as a child hearing about cases like Eleanor Bumpurs in New York, one of the first cases that I can think of where a Black woman had been killed because she couldn't pay her rent and was being evicted by housing cops and ended up being killed because she had a mental illness, and, you know, that was the response.
Giacomo [00:46:16] Let's hear Abby Dobson sing her own powerful composition, "Say Her Name."
[00:46:23] [Music Excerpt: The song begins with a deep and soulful solo voice humming, followed by an anguished embellishment of the melody on "aahs and ohs." The soloist continues with the lyrics, "Say Her Name," in the same vocal style, repeating those words many times. The piece continues with women's voices speaking the names of Black women who have been killed by police in America: Alexia Christian, Tanisha Anderson, Yvette Smith, Shantel Davis... The names begin to overlap; the final name heard is Aiyana Stanley-Jones. The soloist then continues, singing, "Say Her Name. All the names I cannot say. Say their names. All the names I'll never know. Say their names. Black girls matter. Say their names. Black women matter. Say her name. Say her name. Say her name. Say her name," getting more and more emotional with each repetition.]
Abby [00:50:55] So long story short, I was inspired by the work of this organization. I was inspired by marches that I went to where I saw people marching and agitating about this issue, and then I read about it and listened to people telling the stories of their family members. The people who stood up at these marches and said, this is my sister, this is my daughter. And I wanted to create a space to remember Black women and girls, to honor them and to call us all to action, to do something about it, even if it's as simple as rethinking how we think about it and how we feel for someone that doesn't look like us, but whose life was taken away for literally no reason. No reason at all.
Giacomo [00:51:49] Brooke, as a singer who has performed this piece, presumably through the RRC, as an artist yourself and as a mother, how did you receive and respond to this piece?
Brooke [00:52:05] It literally knocked me flat down on the floor, like I feel like the first time I remember... I remember so clearly the first time I heard it. And it's just, the entire room goes completely silent. And Abby just takes everyone with her on this incredible journey through these the memories of all of these women. And I just remember going through—and I think this is just who wouldn't go through this—I was kind of like, oh, my God, this is incredible. And then completely kind of distraught. And then feeling really angry and then feeling like, what's even the point of me? I mean, I could never write anything like this, it's amazing. We should just have her just sing this over and over and over again and and I just and and and sort of righteous indignation. And every time I hear it, a different name sticks out in my head and I learn about something else, so it's just this kind of education as well as the very emotional motivation. And then as a mother, which is a large part of how I've come to become much more of an active activist because I suddenly have this living, breathing future tense that takes up a good part of my energy. The idea of it's one thing to imagine myself being in this situation but a much more profound thing to imagine my daughter being gunned down for no reason. Being taken, beaten, any of these things. And there's no reason to assume that it couldn't be her. And so that is just this really kind of visceral, incredibly strong motivating feeling, to be honest. I mean, it was just kind of like, OK, OK, OK, what have we got? What can we do? We need to figure this out like we need to... Everybody has to be on this. So I think and I also and I also remember that first night just being like, I can't believe I know her! She's amazing! I mean, and I feel that a lot about so many chorus members. And I feel like there's so many of us that, you know, we're still all getting to know each other. And I'm learning another incredible thing about another woman who I've been standing next to for now, like four years. Every time. And it's really, really I mean, even just reading Abby's bio, I was just like, wait, what? Oh, my God.
Abby [00:55:27] Ditto.
Brooke [00:55:27] All these things I didn't even know about, you know. So I feel like and I also felt and I still do always feel proud that I get to be a part of a sisterhood and a part of an artistic collective that includes this profound piece of music. So those are my feelings about "Say Her Name."
Abby [00:55:55] From the day I sang the song at our first Resistance Revival night performance at City Winery, everybody embraced it and everybody had just the most beautiful things to say to me about it. And, you know, that it ended up on our first album was just also another beautiful thing that I'm so grateful for—the opportunity to have contributed that piece to this album. And I was happy to have it be included because I knew that Ginny Suss and that the Chorus in general would take good care of it and would be good stewards of it.
Zane [00:56:38] Yeah, it's a great start for that album. It's the very first track and it sets the tone for the album. It's beautiful.
Giacomo [00:56:45] The past year has brought a lot of attention to issues of social justice and ADEI to the forefront of political discourse in America. And I wanted to ask you both, what role do musicians and artists in general play in this conversation? What's our responsibility?
Abby [00:57:03] I feel really passionately about this issue. You know, kind of like my soliloquy on the importance of singers. I feel that as a person throughout my life's journey that the artist, we've been sort of conflated with entertainment, mostly. Particularly performing artists, singing artists, but just art in general, and that's something that's never sat well with me. And I think that I'm of the school, you know, that's why I want James Baldwin at my dinner party, because, you know, James Baldwin talked about the importance of the artists being at war with society on a certain level and teaching the society. Reflecting back to society, what society looks like. And I think as artists, we all have a lovers war with our society and that part of that is our function as, not just mirrors, but we have a responsibility to hold up for society what is happening because sometimes... We've seen, particularly over the last five years, where people will not agree on what is actually factual and what is actually happening in a community. And artists, part of our function is to do that, is to till that field, is to let people know this is happening and express it in a way that somebody can actually embrace it or relate to it or or or realize it. And so I think the artist has a great function and a responsibility to reflect society. And also be the space where we think about the future. How do we help society transform? How do we help society be better than it is now? How do we move us closer to an experience of humanity that honors our dignity as human beings? And I think that's that's the function of artists that has been shortchanged by our material existence in a society where the material is held up over anything else. And our focus, or privileging, on the commercial and commerciality of art has really hurt our ability to realize our function as truth tellers, truth sayers and transformational artists. Transformational beings. I know I could have said that better, but that's essentially what I think. [chuckles]
Brooke [01:00:21] I mean, everything she said, first of all, of course. And then I just feel like... I feel like we're just... I guess I'll piggyback on the idea of, like, really the idea of artists leading us forward into a new possibility and being the... Our role is to help open people's minds up and their eyes up so that they are able to see what a beautiful world we can potentially build. And part of it is very specific in terms of, OK, we can do this or we're going down to the governor's house and we're asking for specific things or whatever, and part of it is just literally creating that atmosphere and that space that Abby you were sort of talking about, or Bernice Johnson Reagon was talking about in her quote, about sort of sonically creating a space and an atmosphere and a feeling. So it's in a way I feel like... I guess the simplest way is to just say that I feel like it's our role to open people's hearts, and when people's hearts are open, they are able to see more clearly and understand sort of how the importance of working together to create a world that we can all live in, that is accessible, that is diverse, that that celebrates that celebrates difference. So that we're not talking about "I don't see color," but that you understand that seeing color is actually an incredible, beautiful thing. And it's a gift that we live in a world where there are all these colors to see. And so the idea for us now is to really help people.. Bring people to a place where they are able to understand that and see that truth.
Giacomo [01:02:43] Brooke, I want to follow up with you and Abby as well about what those tools of transformation might look like. Brooke, specifically for you, you are, I would dare say, a tastemaker. You're a blogger. You use different tools to sort of get your voice and your point of view across. And I wanted to maybe share with our audience some of your thoughts about how you think about using some of the current tools at our disposal, whether it's social media, or good old face to face conversation, to Facebook, what tools do you find most impactful for affecting social change and what do you avoid?
Brooke [01:03:25] Well, I'm 55 years old, so I avoid TikTok because I don't understand it. [laughs] You know... [laughs more].
Giacomo [01:03:37] Same, same! My best friend keeps sending me TikToks and I'm like, I can't. I just can't.
Brooke [01:03:42] I know! Like, what even is that?! So I mean, I feel like there is and there is something to just using whatever you feel comfortable expressing yourself and whatever that may be. So I, I think that Twitter is kind of amazing for certain people. And I wish I were more active on Twitter, but I don't really I don't really do much there. I think of myself as a visual person. So for me, Instagram... Things that involve a combination of images and words really resonate, and so that is where I've kind of found my strongest kind of social media community. But I do realize that there are so many different... There's so many different things, so many different kind of avenues you can choose—you can be walking down Twitter, you're walking out Instagram, you're walking down Facebook. Then the kids will be like, oh, Facebook, nobody uses Facebook. But clearly lots of people use Facebook because there are all sorts of... Look at the storming of the Capitol. They were on Facebook. So I feel like for me, if I were going to be giving someone advice or writing an instruction booklet, it would sort of say, check out everything, see what speaks to you and how you feel like you can make the best connection. And then also very, very importantly, do not discount in-person anything, although it's been difficult throughout the course of this last year. But I would feel like my strongest moments of motivation and connection have been in person, although I have found out about a lot of those different things through social media. So through any combination of blogs and also podcasts, I find I learn a lot and there's a whole list of them. I'm sort of a New York Times Daily addict and then I kind of go from there. But, yeah, I mean, I think I think it's sort of its use whatever works and then try also not to fall into the trap of self comparison or any of the other kind of ways in which social media can just make you feel bad about yourself, because there are all sorts of very dangerous aspects to the way that we relate the media to each other via all these different things and how we immediately look at pictures and we're just like, "everyone else's life looks really amazing and I'm not doing anything." And even I found that I think that even though I actually know what the real lives are of some of the people whose feeds I follow, I still can catch myself looking like that. So I feel like that's a danger. And I... But at the same time, there are so many really powerful, you can use these social media outlets as really powerful tools for motivating people. But it's very important that you don't use them to silo yourself.
Giacomo [01:07:28] Abby, how about for you?
Abby [01:07:29] I think um... I'm not a real social media person, I'll preface that and be very honest and transparent. However, I think it's a great tool to reach people where they are, so to speak, during this time. This time, meaning just this time in the world, not just because we're in the middle of a pandemic. But I but I think that content still really matters, and so for me, I really love the opportunity to be able to to perform live even in the context of, you know, zoom or something that will be put out on social media, because I think that that is the best way for me to communicate my my point of view, my position, and hopefully to to do what Brooke talked about, which is to open hearts and minds with what it is that is my offering. And in a particular situation, I think that another thing that is important in terms of fostering the transformative power of artists generally is that artists need to also get into different spaces. And so in addition to putting our wares, so to speak, out in social media land, it's important for us to be in positions where we can help policymakers make better choices. And that means sometimes becoming active in organizations that are advocacy organizations, in addition to the performing organizations or the visual arts organizations that we are a part of so that we can help steer the conversation and tell people what it is we think about the world and where we think it needs to go and and also what we we need as artists to do what it is that is important for us to do for our societies. And one great example of that for me is something that Ginny Suss and others organized: Joy to the Polls, which I think was really successful during the last presidential election. You know, just getting people to... Bringing people joy in a polling site and being very organized and coordinated about that so that it happens in a number of places at the same time, and keeping people motivated to do their civic duty. And so, to sum it up, the last thing is just looking for moments where we can use our artistry, our craft through social media to be about civic engagement on some level.
Giacomo [01:10:41] Let's hear some of what frightens Georgia Governor Brian Kemp. Here are some sounds from the Instagram feed of the Joy to the Polls organization, a nonpartisan initiative to bring music and artistry to entertain people waiting in epic lines to vote at the Georgia runoff elections last January.
Intro [01:10:59] [Music Excerpt: A DJ is playing beats and MCing on the mic saying "Every day, every day, I'm hustlin' hustlin," followed by a woman speaking to the crowd. She is saying "Hey Georgia, don't forget it's the runoff elections! And don't forget to bring your joy to the polls! Celebrate!!" The audio is taken from an Instagram video and is clearly geared to excite and energize the crowd at a polling location in Georgia. The DJ continues, "Bein' a boss is bein' involved. Bein' a boss is bein' in the game. Nobody can determine your net worth. Can't nobody determine your value. You understand?" Various speakers are heard saying, "Music brings people together. Music is active. If we keep active and people like me coming out here and encouraging our use our platform to encourage our fans to come out here. It's only up for me. Change is coming. Somebody like this big draws for him to come out so we can definitely make a change, especially somebody on the biggest hand actually goes about the potential for us being the next generation. We've got to focus on actually going on voting because I'm not going to be complaining later on about something I didn't vote for." A choir is then heard singing outside in a public place. Speakers continue, "I feel like we're definitely trying to make a change in the world. Instead of trying to persuade people to vote and give a reason why they should, we trying to educate them and trying to show them why they need to vote because it's not a fact of, oh, y'all should just do this. This is something that's going to change everybody's life. We all come together and do it. So it's a big movement." Another voice says, "We want to encourage people to wait in line, we're bringing music, we're handing out PPE, we're bringing snacks, water, whatever it takes to get people to stay, and to vote. We're just trying to make voting the joyful experience it should be. We're trying to make sure that our community knows we have to get out and vote again. Tell everybody, you know, you have to come and vote. You will make the difference in this election. You have that power. You will make the difference of making sure that we have policies that affect our community. And we're at the finish line. I promise you. Georgia, all eyes are on you." Many voices all together: "Joy to the polls! Go vote, go vote!!"]
Giacomo [01:13:28] In our waning few moments, is there anything you'd like to share with our audience? Projects you're working on? Things that we can look out for or maybe where we can find you online?
Brooke [01:13:38] Well, we just came out with our album, This Joy. So the Resistance Revival Chorus, you can find it on, you know, wherever you download music. So it can be Spotify, it can be iTunes, it can be wherever else. We're on Righteous Babe records so you can actually, I think, still purchase a vinyl copy, which is I'm not quite sure when they're actually going to press the vinyl because the pandemic has kind of slowed everything down. But we made a red record. So if anybody still has an old style record player you can pick up... I'm so excited. [all laughing] And so so for me, I mean, that's that's the big thing. And then I'm on Instagram as @thisisauthentic and I've got a blog at thisisauthentic.com and I'm going to be sort of writing about all this stuff and hopefully connecting with as many people as I can in many different ways that I can, and then we can bring everybody back to the concerts and, you know, group in IRL experiences that I am really, really craving right now, especially as a singer, as a member of a chorus, to just have that feeling of singing all together. We met... Some of us met up in Harlem this weekend with the Working Families Party to sing for their Thrive Agenda. It was... The action was called Jamming for Jobs, and they were incredible musicians and singers. And we sang and I haven't sung out loud with members of the chorus in such a long time. And it was the most incredible feeling. And it just got me all excited about hitting the streets and hitting the... I think maybe we're going to be Bonnaroo, I think we're talking about if that goes, if that happens, we will be there. Also, the Newport Folk Festival, same thing. So those are two places you can catch the chorus if you're feeling adventurous and want to come out. And that's it. I think Abby's got a bunch of things going on, too, so...
Abby [01:16:10] In addition to what Brooke just said about the chorus, I first want to say I totally agree. I long for, you know, the time when we can get together without masks and, you know, really sing with each other and just be together in a way that we have grown accustomed. And in addition to those wonderful gigs that are slated to happen, for me, I'm, you know, just continuing to try to find opportunities to marry my love of music and my love of purposeful music with activism. I'm particularly passionate about creating music that inspires empathy for Black women and girls. And that's a part of my mission statement as an artist and what gets me going. And being in the Resistance Revival Chorus is certainly on-mission for me, especially in the way it centers so many different types of women, which is one of the beautiful aspects of it that we haven't talked about today but I just wanted to mention. What's coming up for me is that I am currently working on... I have a title, but it's a tentative title. It's probably not going to be exactly the right title, but I'll say it. This pandemic has been crazy for all of us, right? And I think one of the things that it has reminded us all of, I imagine as thinking and feeling people, is that you know, love and community are things that we cannot take for granted because you don't know the day, you don't know the hour. And for so much of the time over the last few years with the last administration and leading up to that, I feel like we've been in the belly of a war. And as an artist that's trying to do work that's socially responsible and about social justice, I have to remind myself that love is the greatest of all things. And so I want to do a project, and I'm working on one called (tentatively) Love in Times of War: A Healing. And so that's up for me; that's slated for later on in 2021. Just a collection of songs that focus on love, but with... Love, but with an eye on social justice.
Giacomo [01:18:54] Thank you both for that. And this has been a wonderful conversation. I can't thank you both enough for sharing your time with us, your insights and your music and your art. I'm so looking forward to getting to continue this conversation with you both at some point in the future.
Zane [01:19:13] Yeah. Thank you for joining us and thank you for everything that you're doing. And so many of the sentiments that you've expressed I wholeheartedly agree with, and it's just really wonderful to share your voices. So. Yeah. Thank you for all that you're doing.
Abby [01:19:29] Thank you so much for having us.
Brooke [01:19:34] Thank you. We loved it!
Abby [01:19:36] We're really appreciative of your approach and your questions and your energy and your spirit. And it's been a pleasure to be here.
Brooke [01:19:46] Yeah. Thank you for including us in your universe.
Giacomo [01:19:50] Let's end today's episode with some lasting joy. Here's the Resistance Revival Chorus singing "Joy in Resistance" by Abena Koomson-Davis.
[01:20:01] [Music Excerpt: Treble voices singing in moving harmony are joined by a joyful soloist embellishing the melody and ad libbing the lyrics: "What the world needs now is joy in resistance. We will fight the good fight with or without your assistance. Move out of the way if you can't support the mission. What the world needs now is joy in resistance." Verse two: "What the world needs now is faith in resistance. We will fight the good fight with or without your assistance. Move out of the way if you can't support the mission. What the world needs now is faith in resistance." Each subsequent verse keeps the same lyrics while substituting out the action word in the first line: "faith" becomes "love" in verse three, becoming "hope" in verse four, and finally returning to "joy" in the final verse.]
Outro [01:21:43] Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the In Unison podcast. If you've got ideas for our podcast, please send us a message at ideas@inunisonpodcast.com. And who knows, maybe Chorus Dolores will ask us to talk about it during announcements. In Unison is sustained, nourished, and fostered by you, our loyal and loving listeners. And don't forget to subscribe to In Unison on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. You can find us on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook @inunisonpod. And hey, if you like what you heard, tell a friend or a section mate. Thanks again for tuning in. See you soon.
Chorus Dolores [01:23:07] Retreat forms are available from Chorus Dolores, who needs them back yesterday, people.
Credits [01:23:17] In Unison is produced and recorded by Mission: Orange Studios. Our theme music is Mr. Puffy, written by Avi Bortnick, arranged by Paul Kim, and performed by the Danish vocal jazz ensemble Dynamic on their debut album, This Is Dynamic. Special thanks to Paul Kim for permission. Be sure to check them out at dynamicjazz.dk.