S2 E10: Shifting Frequencies in Concert Design: Astrid Vang-Pederson of Dopplers
This week, we chat with Astrid Vang-Pederson, the founder and artistic director of Danish vocal performance ensemble, Dopplers, about everything ranging from the world of a cappella singing to Astrid’s specialty: concert design.
Music excerpts
Mín Móðir by Eivør Pálsdóttir, performed by Dopplers
Take Me Coco, written and performed by Dopplers
Colors of Peace, written and performed by Dopplers
Ubuntusong, by Astrid Vang-Pederson, performed by Astrid Vang-Pederson, Dopplers, & Ubuntusong World Choir
Episode references
Theme Song: Mr. Puffy by Avi Bortnik, arr. by Paul Kim. Performed by Dynamic
Episode Transcript
Intro [00:00:07] Hello and welcome to In Unison, the podcast for choral conductors, composers and choristers, where we interview members of our choral community to talk about new music, new and upcoming performances, and discuss the interpersonal and social dynamics of choral organizations in the San Francisco Bay Area and beyond. We are your hosts. I am Zane Fiala, Artistic Director of the International Orange Chorale of San Francisco. And I'm Giacomo DiGrigoli, a tenor in IOCSF, the Golden Gate Men's Chorus and the San Francisco Symphony Chorus. And this is In Unison.
Giacomo [00:00:42] This week we chat with Astrid Vang-Pedersen, the founder and artistic director of Danish vocal performance ensemble Dopplers, about everything ranging from the world of a cappella singing to Astrid's specialty, concert design. Let's kick off this week's episode with some music. Here's "Min Môdir", written by Eivør, performed by Dopplers. [00:01:06] [Music excerpt: a chorus sings a drone with overtones, punctuated by audible breathing and sung beeps which provide a rhythmic ostinato. A female voice then speaks over this drone and ostinato]
Zane [00:05:22] All right, joining us today on In Unison, we have a very old friend of mine from way back in the day! We have Astrid Vang-Pedersen and Astrid is a choral conductor and concert designer. She has developed a specific method of staging choral performances called Concert Design and finished her thesis on the subject in 2018 with a project created in collaboration with the Royal Danish Academy of Music and Roskilde University. She is the artistic director of Dopplers, which she founded in 2009, and she also works as a freelance teacher of choral conducting and concert design and composes music for choirs and theater productions. Astrid has initiated the collaborative choir project Ubuntusong, where choir singers from around the world promote cross-cultural understanding through song. The project debut was released in 2018 and is a tribute to the legacy of Nelson Mandela and the South African philosophy, ubuntu. Welcome, Astrid!
Astrid [00:06:23] Thank you very much.
Giacomo [00:06:24] Hooray! Welcome! [laughter from Astrid] And now we'll jump into my favorite part of the conversation, which is the icebreaker. We want to get to know you a little bit...
Astrid [00:06:32] Yeah!
Giacomo [00:06:32] ... Just personally who you are. Here's one for you. What is the most surprising song we might find on your personal playlists? And why do you consider it surprising?
Astrid [00:06:45] Well, I don't know if it's that surprising, actually, I think of the parents in the world might say, "Oh, that's very natural," because you might think that my playlist is full of interesting and artistic songs that I'm, you know, interested in or discovering. But really, my playlist is mainly children's songs [laughter from Zane] and nursery rhymes and different kinds of fairy tales that you can play when you're tucking your kids in at night. And I have two daughters who are five and eight and they love music and they love storytelling. So my playlists that will open up initially is full of that.
Giacomo [00:07:22] Wait! What's one of the songs? You're a singer, you've got to give us a little bit of one that's stuck in your head. I'm sure...
Astrid [00:07:27] Oh, the first one that comes into mind is actually the Moonlight Sonata by Beethoven, though it's played on, you know, one of those instruments that's not a piano. It's just one of those that sounds like a tinkle thing for, for sleeping tight. And I usually tell them in a freestyle tale about how Beethoven came to compose this music.
Zane [00:07:48] Aah...
Astrid [00:07:48] And so even though it's made up, it's just one of those great things that get your kids' imagination going. And eventually they fall asleep.
Zane [00:07:56] Ah, that's wonderful.
Giacomo [00:07:56] That's really sweet. And it's so wonderful to see you passing on this tradition to your, to your children. Which leads me to another personal question, which is, why did you choose music as a profession?
Astrid [00:08:11] Well, I think actually there wasn't much of a choice for me. Music has always been a big part of my life and I've been singing and playing since I was very little. And, uh, so it just I think at one point I was reflecting upon it, saying if I could choose to do something else, what should it then be? But it was just never very natural to actually make that choice to do something different. So it just, it just was right there in front of me. So it's more like, "How? How should I pursue music?" than whether to do it or not.
Giacomo [00:08:46] So why singing, then, why the voice for you?
Zane [00:08:49] ... because you're clearly an accomplished piano player as well.
Astrid [00:08:52] Oh, thank you!
Giacomo [00:08:52] Indeed!
Astrid [00:08:52] Yeah, well, I started out actually playing a lot of piano, but already in my school years, I found singing in choirs very fascinating. And this was back when we had cassette tapes.
Giacomo [00:09:04] [laughter] Oh, yes!
Astrid [00:09:04] So one of the things we used to do was actually record a part on a cassette tape. And then I played that back and recorded on another cassette player so that I could sing multiple parts just alone. So I guess the whole thing about, you know, harmonies was very fascinating for me already back then. So that kept on building. And then when I studied at the university, choral conducting and choral singing was just one part of the subjects that we had there. But then that was when I discovered that this was actually also something that I was good at. So then it became very natural for me to pursue that further on. And so. So that was that was why.
Giacomo [00:09:42] How did you how, did you know you were good at it? What was the feedback you were getting?
Astrid [00:09:46] Well, the university had a very broad... you know, it was very focusing on a lot of different topics within music, both the academic field, but also the practical field. And this was one of the practical disciplines. And I had been studying for three years, and I actually loved that education. But I was looking into doing another two years where I was like, "If it's going to be more of the same, I wanna... I might want to change to something different." And then actually, I went to my final exam and got a top grade in choral conducting. And then I realized, well, I love this so much. And obviously somebody else also thinks that I have something to offer here. So that was what pointed me. And then I actually made the change because in Denmark we have academies for being musicians, practically exercising musicians. And then we have the universities. If you wanna teach or whether you wanna move on to being an academic. So those are split. And then I changed over to the academy and studied choral conducting after that. So...
Giacomo [00:10:42] I dare ask this question, but what if you were a little bit of a renegade and you hadn't pleased your professors? What would your life have been like then?
Astrid [00:10:53] That's a very good question. I don't know the word renegade, but it sounds like a rebel or something.
Giacomo [00:10:57] Rebel. Yes!
Astrid [00:10:58] [laughter] Well, I don't know for some reason. I mean, now, you know that I also made a Ph.D. So my path is kind of it's always skipping between the academic field and the practical field. So I guess once I've been in one for a while, I feel like I need to go over to the other so that in one way that's become my mission. And sometimes it's also been terribly frustrating because trying to build a bridge between those two things is actually sometimes really hard because the academics feel like they feel like that's the way to do it. That's the way to approach understanding music. And practitioners feel like doing music is the way to understand music. So to bridge those two is quite, is quite the challenge. And it's given me a lot of, you know, heartaches and headaches along the way. So I guess that's why I keep on going back and pushing to try and do that - innovate that place.
Zane [00:11:54] Have you found effective ways of bridging those two? The... the academic side and the practical side? Have you personally found ways to bridge those?
Astrid [00:12:03] Well, I think my PhD project has been one of those attempts. And in some parts of it, I have succeeded, I feel... because I really found that within design thinking. That's why my method is called Concept Design, like working with designers. That's really strong. Both have strong traditions, both in the academic field and the practical field. And this is one of the places where you can really feel that there's a synergy, that when those two come together, we become... the world opens up and we have way more possibilities. But it's still, it's still difficult if you're trained within a tradition, I think you both have some classical training within the classical tradition. If you, if you were born and bred within that tradition, it's kind of difficult to say, "Well, hey! Some of that tradition might not always have been reflected upon." And then people will go, "Well, how can you say that the tradition is so strong? How can you question that?" So in that sense, it has also cost sometimes a little bit on that.
Giacomo [00:13:07] Maybe you might be able to step back because you've used two words there that I don't know what they are. Maybe our listeners don't know what they are. You mentioned that one of your skills is concert design, but what does that mean?
Astrid [00:13:19] That's a really good question. And actually, concert design is... it's not something that I've invented, obviously, because concerts exist and design exists. So what we all do when we put together programs and create events, that's basically concert design. So what I'm saying with that is just that it's the process that goes into creating an end product that entails music... as the main feature. Now, what I then mean by concert design is putting on that reflective perspective and saying, "Well, we actually aim to be aware of every step in the process, and that aim builds on a vision or... an attempt to try and do something to reach our audiences." So concert design is in many ways an attempt to create an event where the event, here and now - that meeting where you as a performer meet your audience - that's the most important thing. Not the artwork as something that stands alone, you know? Like, we would sometimes say that a composition is a piece of art that's out of space and out of time. Well, concept design is very focused on bringing that into the here and now, into time and space and saying, "Well, us who are here right now, what does it mean for us to share this musical experience? And how can we transfer that into the world afterwards as inspiration or action or joy or whatever that might be?" So... So that's the, that's the attempt - to create the possibility of using events for transforming people.
Giacomo [00:14:59] I imagine that you mentioned as part of concert design that it's about bringing people in together, all experiencing something at the same time. Boy, this has been a challenging year for that! I imagine that under COVID, you've probably had to be a little bit more creative. You probably can still bring people together, but a different way. What projects have you worked on during this time period where some of the tools in your toolbox have been taken away?
Astrid [00:15:25] Well, first of all, I want to say that you're definitely right. It has been a really rough year for all of us who love to sing and love to be singing together. But those, those difficulties are perhaps not... Well, they are different. But there are always difficulties in doing concert design. And those are due to the fact that music always has certain things that need to be fulfilled in order for us to do our job well. Let's say the acoustic can sometimes be something that's difficult for us to overcome, or it can be something about, you know, "Where do we need to stand in order to hear each other in a choir or in an orchestra." We can't do... we can't do everything freely. We always have to consider what does it take to realize the music and make that connect with the space and the audience. Now, obviously, a lot of things have been taken out of that equation now during COVID. So people can't get together physically and we have to do perhaps online concerts instead. And that's quite a different thing. So personally, we have done a few online concerts, but not so much. We have tried to work on being, you know, creative and saying, "Well, what can we do while we are hoping that the world will return so that we can sing again with our audiences?" So last spring of 2020, we did songwriting and produced some videos and we did one online concert. And then we were lucky in Denmark that in the fall of... the early fall of 2020, we were actually able to sing again for a while before the second wave came. So we did a few concerts and this was where it was challenging for me to do concert design because we had to do everything. Each singer would have to stand two meters apart. Which is... we do a lot of choreography. So that's kind of hard when you have to make people pass each other and they can't sing when they pass each other that moment. And we have to be far away from the audience. So I had to rethink the usual way that I would put together choreography, which is very much made to underline certain musical atmospheres or statements of text and stuff like that. So that had to be done in different ways. I had to make some compromises, basically.
Giacomo [00:17:44] Sometimes we've chatted with some composers and some other folks who, when we talk about constraints to their art, they say that actually it sparks a really interesting creativity or interesting moments. And even as you were mentioning, "Oh, gosh, I'm two meters away from you, I might try to use that." Did you have moments of inspiration like that where the constraints actually created something that you wouldn't have thought of before?
Astrid [00:18:08] Yeah, definitely. I think and we... at the moment Dopplers is a smaller group. So we're not so many singers. That has been a lucky thing for us because we've been able to work. But we have also definitely felt that we've become more independent and that our ears have grown bigger in singing together because we had to have that distance between us and we have made it work. But we have also realized what it took for us to make it work. And it has made us grow basically.
Giacomo [00:18:36] I have another question for you. So you mentioned also that you were a PhD in concert design and... I started reading your PhD. I will confess, it's four hundred and thirty two pages...
Astrid [00:18:46] I'm so sorry!
Giacomo [00:18:46] I did not get through it. [laughter from Astrid and Zane] But I did, I did look through the abstract and you talk about six principles and, maybe correct me if I'm wrong, but these are what seemed like they're the... six principles that you consider: narratives, gathering and dispersing, sensuousness, surprise, inclusion and identity. And maybe you would restate those differently if you'd like or if you'd like, but maybe tell us about why those are your principles and maybe give us some examples of each of them. I'm particularly interested in sensuousness myself. [laughter from Astrid and Zane] It's very interesting.
Astrid [00:19:26] Well, I would definitely love to to talk you through that. I think I'm just going to take you a few steps back just to say that...
Giacomo [00:19:31] Please.
Astrid [00:19:31] The way that I worked when I did this research project was that I kind of had three legs going on at the same time. And one of them was studying what's already written, you know, the academic field of performance and musicology. And another one was looking at what kind of experiments have been done out there right now. And this was particularly within the classical field. Now, today, I work very much in the crossover field, which is as broad as you can get genre-wise. And I think concert design is equally pertinent to each of those genres. But the specific field of interest in the PhD was the classical tradition. And then the third leg was me doing experiments with musicians and, and groups of people doing music together so that I kind of had all of these three ways to put together and look at what, what kind of things could be done here. And this is how these principles were developed.
Giacomo [00:20:25] Let's hear a bit of some of those principles in action. Here's the sensuous "Colors of Peace" written and performed by Dopplers. [00:20:34] [Music excerpt: a lone male voice sings one phrase of a song, another phrase is then handed off to a female singer, eventually both singing a duet. They are both then joined by the full chorus to sing the rest of the song in full harmony].
Astrid [00:20:33] Now, first of all, before getting into the principles, I looked at what does it even take to talk about the concept of a concert event being happening. And I came down with these three parameters based on the literature and what had been researched already. And those three parameters were performers. We need performers, obviously, but we also do need an audience. Otherwise it's just a rehearsal. And then the third thing we do need is a space and this can be a virtual space. But in my PhD, it was focused on a physical space. So there might be different things going on talking about one of the other. But when you put those three parameters together, that's kind of your starting point, saying, "OK, what do I know about these parameters every time I'm doing a new event? What I know about the singers - who are they? What are their qualities? How can I bring that forward? What do I know about the space? What are the restraints, as you were mentioning? What are the possibilities of this space offer and what do I know about the audience? Do I know anything? Are they perhaps, you know, relatives or friends or are they followers or are they people I don't know." So all these things, I start... I bring that together and look at that with the music, with the repertoire and say, OK, what do I have then? What kind of pieces can I use to put together my puzzle? Now, when I then holistically look at the event, then I start thinking about these principles and one of them is the story basically. Now, I change the names along the way in my research project and that's so they are called a little bit different, but it's basically the same six principles as you were mentioning. So there's structure and there's a story and those two are kind of the framework of an event and the structure is basically the gathering and dispersing. It comes all the way back from the ancient Greek theaters and events, sporting events. So you gather somewhere and that atmosphere of anticipation, you're going to participate in something as an audience. That's what's happening in the gathering phase. And that has an impact on your overall experience. Then the event takes place and then there's a dispersing afterwards - you walk out into the city, you go to a cafe, you talk with other audience members about what that experience has been like. So those three faces are all important. So that's the structure and then the story is basically the drama. Is there a drama happening? And we know that within one piece of music, there is often a drama. Perhaps it's an abstract one, but there is a sense of a drama going on. Now, when I work on a holistic perspective of a concept, then I'm trying to think about, well, is there drama from the beginning to an end? Not as much as a theater play, but still saying, can I connect the pieces into a setlist that makes sense. And so those were the two first kind of principles, the first two ones and then the other four. They are very much focusing on the content and also what happens when in the lineup. So then there's the sensory part of the sensuousness, as you were saying, which is just very much about thinking, realizing basically that music or music at an event is way more than what we hear. So even though I wear black, also formal black when I'm singing, it does say something about what I'm doing, whether I think it or not, there's not such a thing as a neutral visual experience. So that choice is a choice that I need to reflect upon. And they were all sensory aspects, you know, like what does the hall look like, how did that play together with what we're wearing? What's the temperature, what's the atmosphere? All that comes together with the architecture.
Giacomo [00:28:28] I have to say, there are times when I have been at concerts sitting on a very hard pew, you know, even the audience experience where you're like, "Oh God, this is still going." And I would rather be sitting on a couch and having a latte. So it seems like it's not just the performers, but maybe also the audience as well. Do you think about the audience when you construct that sensuous experience?
Astrid [00:28:46] Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I have been to some very interesting experiments on exactly that, where the chairs of the theater have been taken out. And you were asked to sit on like a hard tea stool created just for the event, just to see, you know what are we as audience trained to do as well. And we sat on those tea stools for a long time before somebody finally revolted and said, "You know what, I'm going to sit on the floor." [laughter from Zane] "This is not working for me." So as an audience, we're also extremely trained into what is OK and what kind of behavior do we accept in the concert hall. So I do think a lot about the audience, especially because it can feel very unsafe as an audience member if you feel insecure or uncertain about what am I supposed to do now? So one of the, you know, important aspect is always it has to be thinking about what makes the audience feel good or safe and let them know what is, what is expected or how would we like to for them to be involved if, if they are being invited to be involved so that they're not thinking, "Should I applaud or should I not applaud?" You know, help them feel like they're doing what's OK, you know, what's the right response for them to do.
Zane [00:30:00] And do you address that directly? Like, do you if you're leading a concert and you want to make sure your audience knows how they should be acting or how they should be feeling, do you actually say that to the audience? Are there techniques and ways that you can imply it or or let them know through nonverbal communication?
Astrid [00:30:20] Definitely. There are different kinds of options. And it very much depends upon the event. If it's an event where there is perhaps a speaker who is carrying, you know, the narration through the concert, then it would sometimes be a good thing to say. We would like you not to applaud for the section or then wait for the applause to come until this and then tell them a little bit about what's going to happen so that they understand why. But it's definitely also possible to make that statement without addressing it directly, if that fits the event. So sometimes it can be just about how you as a performer hold that energy. The conductor can do it if you have a conductor. We don't, we don't often have conductors in Dopplers, but then it's very much about how you hold your position at the end of the piece and then carry that on into. So it's very much about your physical awareness because the audience won't break that if you don't break it. And that goes, you know, the other way too around. If you want them to applause, then you release that energy [sound of loud exhalation] and then they know, "Oh yes, I can applaud!" you know. So it pretty much becomes that connection you have, you have with the audience right there.
Giacomo [00:31:38] If I may. And I feel like we can talk for hours about each of these, the details of the principles and the, and the structure and everything. But I want to shift to something I found on your website as well, where you call them concepts. There are concert concepts that you were putting out. And there are two specifically. There's one called Reimagine, which sounds like it's about John Lennon's piece and another called Nord. And I would love to ask you, what do you mean by these concepts? Why are they on your website? What are they?
Astrid [00:32:09] Well, basically, it's a trademark of the way that we work in Dopplers, which is in some ways perhaps a little different than other ensembles, even though other ensembles I know they work with themes as well. You know, for a season they might do a certain theme. But this is, ah, this is something that we are focusing on. And that's just because the concert design is kind of our thing. So we work on specific concepts and designs that we build for specific seasons because we feel like this is a good story to tell now. So the Reimagine project we're doing because John Lennon's iconic song is turning fifty this, this autumn. So and it's kind of... it's a you know, it's a beautiful statement. It's a very famous song. And for us, it's a good opportunity to say, "OK, well, how can we create an interesting concept with a focus on a specific audience group that we would like to inspire?" So the project Reimagine is actually focusing on young people in high school that we want them to be active and perhaps also voice what kind of dreams they would have. What they would imagine for their futures, and I mean, obviously there's a lot of things going on in the world right now, which is also very important for young people to talk about - what kind of things do they feel like need to happen for them to have a better future. So we have created this. It's kind of an open framework called Reimagine. It's a concert where Dopplers has some songs. But then there are spaces left up for the different kinds of high schools that participate for them to put in different kinds of works that they create and that we help put together with them. So that could be poetry that they write and that we then do improvised musical sections for/with them. Or it could be them writing a song if they have some songwriting on their schedule and music class or whichever kind of fits. So it's a flexible thing that we have. And then we've written an opening piece and a finale piece and then, and then we'll do a reinvented Imagine version somewhere in that in the concert as well. So that's one example of what we would try to do to reach a certain group of people, and that's also what often lies in our concept that says we really want to try it and see what we can give to the audience, whether it's, you know, inspiration or perhaps it's encouragement to do action. Or it can also just be the, the feeling of joy or mourning, if that's what's relevant for the, for the concept. And concept build is coming out of like concert design is really a concept of its own, consisting of a model and a process. And then the methods that we're then working with and sharing with the people that we workshop with.
Zane [00:35:10] So can you tell us a little bit more about Dopplers, where the name came from? And we'll get into that ensemble?
Astrid [00:35:17] Yeah, sure. So Dopplers was initially a vocal ensemble that came out of the University of Copenhagen, and it was because the university already had, for a long time, had a tradition of having a choir which mainly sang classical music. And then at some point I was a freelance teacher there. I was like, "Well, shouldn't they have a rhythmical vocal ensemble as well?" And at that point, they were like, "Well, sure, let's let's try to have that happen." So it started out being a rhythmical vocal ensemble that kind of mirrored what was already out there in the world at the time. And people were changing each semester because it depended on who was studying at the moment. So we did different kinds of projects those first two or three years. And then Dopplers then kind of evolved into something different. First of all, it got separated from the university mainly because of funding, but also because some people were no longer in the university. So we really looked at ourselves saying, "Well, do we want to continue this project? And if we do, what should it then be about?" And then we also changed repertoire, going from being more traditional rhythmical vocal repertoire into being a little bit more creative in the sense of the concert design framework. So we very much became a crossover ensemble saying one of our missions is to say, "Well, concerts don't have to be either classical music or rhythmical music. It can be about telling the good story or the important message." And we use good music and it doesn't really matter whether it's classical or folk or if it's rhythmical or if it's jazz. It can all go together. So that was kind of the second period of Dopplers. And that's also when Dopplers got its name. Yeah, because we sat down and brainstormed at some point because in the beginning it was called the... I don't even remember - the Rhythmical Ensemble of Copenhagen University, I think. But then we brainstormed and one of the former members came up with Dopplers. And in the beginning, we kind of had a little bit of... I had a little bit of trouble with it because I felt like it sounded a bit like the Dubliners or something like, sound like a bar [laughter] and would people understand that. But it stuck with us. And what it talks about is the Doppler effect, which is, you know, the effect of the sound waves. So we're still missing to create a piece of music that actually exemplifies that. I have that on my to do list at some point. We haven't done it yet.
Zane [00:37:50] You've used the term rhythmical choir a couple of times, which is is actually a phrase that I'm not familiar with, not that I don't know what you mean by it, but I think that perhaps that's kind of the equivalent of what we, here in the States, call a cappella choral music, where the choir, the voices provide the rhythmical the rhythmic like background or backing of the for the rest of the of the voices. Is that what you mean? Just to define it for our audience.
Astrid [00:38:16] Yeah. And you know what? There is no good terminology, I think. We talk a lot about it here actually, because we have specific courses at the one of the academies in Denmark now for this genre of choral conducting, because usually there wasn't such a thing as you couldn't study choral conducting that wasn't classical. But now you actually can and it's called... I think they call it pop, rock and jazz choir. But even that is not necessarily fulfilling because where does world music or folk music then fit in? So it's one of those things. And rhythmical choir is really not a good terminology because all music is rhythmical. So it's, it's just a lack of a good terminology for saying that this is something that has the groove, you know, and the beat as an important... A more important factor. It has a steady beat often. And it's true that I think it's equivalent to the a cappella world of what you have in the States. But in Denmark there's actually a really, really strong tradition of working with that in choirs. I think we're one of the frontrunners on this field. We have a big festival and we have different programs in both university and the academies where you can study this. So it's quite a unique thing.
Zane [00:39:31] And within that genre of a cappella or rhythmical whichever, whatever title we want to give it. Now, what would you say differentiates Dopplers from other groups that sing in that similar style?
Astrid [00:39:42] Well, there's two things that I would say we have developed into becoming. I mean, in the beginning, we might have had more of that rhythmical choir feel, which is like you were explaining. It's very much about actually sounding like instruments. You take a pop rock ideal of instruments, you put that into vocals. And so we started there, but then we changed into, like becoming what, the Real Group of Sweden, if you know that a cappella group, what you would say that we were actually people who were born with vocal music within this genre as well. So instead of trying to make band music work in vocal music, vocal music within these genres becomes a natural norm. So we've changed that a little bit. So it's for us, it's not so much about the drum and bass. We don't have that aspect very predominantly in Dopplers. We also don't sing on handheld microphones. We sing on theater microphones, which is a very different idea. And preferably we would sing and we do sing a lot acoustic as well. So we land somewhere in between the traditional choir sound, acoustic choir sound, and the amplified a cappella sound. And then when we still did a lot of cover music, we did a lot of them both crossover between genres, but also mash ups between genres. So that kind of became our take on doing something that was a little different than doing straight covers. And now we've moved on into composing a lot of our music ourselves.
Giacomo [00:41:16] Here's one of Astrid's earlier arrangements, a mash up of Zap Mama's "Take Me Coco", performed by Dopplers. [00:41:24] [Music excerpt: a lone voice sings then joined by the chorus to form an ostinato, over which a female soloist sings a melody that sounds improvised]
Giacomo [00:46:14] You taught a program this past February for the Los Angeles A Cappella Festival, which was really cool. We would love to talk to you about not only what you taught, but maybe also what did you learn? What were some of the differences and similarities between a cappella music in the US versus Denmark?
Astrid [00:46:32] Well, first of all, it was great being part of the festival. And I, uh... one of the things that's still quite new is to teach in this hybrid or in this straight online format. And of course, I... this was an online format. So it was also about working out the platform and how are we doing this. So I taught concert design, which is the main... the main thing that I usually teach at... when I go to different festivals. And also here at the... when I teach at the university and at the academies here. So concert design is the, you know, concept that I have developed. And I exemplify that by using Dopplers, but also some of the larger productions that I've done at the Aarhus Vocal Festival. I'm at the Board of Aarhus Vocal Festival, and this is one of the festivals that's trying to do innovation within both the more traditional fields of workshops and concerts, but also by putting on a bigger production that has this, you know, more theatrical feel to it. So, um, so that was what I was introducing at the festival and then I got to... I got to look a little bit into what was happening otherwise in the festival. But unfortunately, due to the, you know... big time difference, I didn't see so much. But two years ago, Dopplers was in New York. Now we went to New York for the SingStrong festival. And I actually learned a lot about the, you know, a cappella scene in the U.S. First of all, I didn't know it was so big. I mean, it's huge. It seems like it's almost as big as sports. And I didn't know that many different kinds of universities had this a cappella thing going on. We don't have something like that in Denmark.
Giacomo [00:48:17] Not as well paid or well-supported as sports...
Astrid [00:48:20] Obviously not.
Giacomo [00:48:21] We wish!
Astrid [00:48:21] It never is... [laughter] but that was kind of an eye opener for me. And I was impressed with the level that there are so many people who are actually very passionate about doing this a cappella style. So, I thought that was kind of cool and it was inspirational to think about how we could be more proactive at home and getting people into singing. Because in Denmark, one of the big issues is that it's... it's difficult to get guys, good guys singing because they don't sing when they're kids. It's usually just girls. So, I mean, this could be one of the ways. It seemed like they were much better represented, male and female, in some of these groups. And then I thought it was kind of cool, that whole support system, I mean, how good they were at cheering on each other and having this friendly competition going on. So I also met some professional groups there, and I was impressed with the fact that there's quite a lot of professional groups who can actually make a living from doing a cappella in the States. And we don't have one single professional a cappella group in Denmark because there is such a big difference between... I mean, we have some professional vocal ensembles who sing classical music who are supported and funded. We don't have one single acapella group who are neither funded or able to make a living. So that's quite different here.
Giacomo [00:49:49] Why do you suppose that is?
Astrid [00:49:51] Well, I think there are more things to it. First of all... on a positive note, Denmark does have a very strong funding system from the state. So that means that we do have a lot of symphony orchestras and also a few vocal ensembles who are actually funded by the state. I don't... I don't think the US has that in the same way. So that's very positive because we bring out art for everybody. It becomes very democratic. Now, the downside to that is, though, that there's quite a big hierarchy between what is art and what is not. So if you're working like, for instance, like Dopplers within different kinds of genres, it's way more difficult to have that kind of funding. And I think that's actually just one orchestra. It's a jazz orchestra that's funded by the state. So you can see there's a big division, there's a big gap between the genres and what is being recognized as art. So that's one thing. And then on the other hand, I mean, it also means that sometimes we as Danish people, we don't feel like we need... we're not used to. We're just not... taught that we need to pay for quality in the same way that you might need to do in the US. Like if you want to have a symphony orchestra, you need to have sponsors. And you also need to have people who help fund the art. And I think we're very used to that. We can just go to the church and they will hire someone for a concert. And I don't have to pay anything personally. So when you get to be like a group like Dopplers and many other groups get to be just about that level where we also need to make a living, it's actually quite difficult. Because it's difficult for people to actually pay, not because they can't, but because they're not used to.
Giacomo [00:51:42] Well, the converse problem, of course, is you get the joys of capitalism. So I think we have to be careful what we wish for [laughter] in this realm. This cultural exchange, even just learning a little bit about Denmark, is fantastic and is fascinating for me. I'd like to ask you a little bit about a different type of cultural exchange that you've been involved with, which is your Ubuntu song project. So as a tech nerd, I know what this means for technologists. It's the operating system for Linux, right? But what does Ubuntu mean to you in the realm of music and choral singing? And what is the Ubuntu song project?
Astrid [00:52:19] Well, the Ubuntu Song Project is a project that I initiated because I have... I have a long history of working with South African music, original music, traditional music. And before I started working with Dopplers, actually, I was part of a group in Denmark that sang indigenous songs from South Africa. In this group I was part of and then I later became the conductor of the group. So I was involved with this South African adventure for almost 20 years. And during those years, I traveled to South Africa six times and we did workshops with local choirs, all black choirs. So we learned the songs from the people who sang the songs and we were told stories and the meaning of this music, which was basically... you know, a powerful weapon that these people have had during apartheid. And that cultural exchange has just made such a great impact on me. And the fact that we, as people from so far away, coming down to South Africa and singing their songs and feeling like, you know, what difference can that make for anyone realizing that it actually could make a difference? Because what they saw was some people, some white people from far, far away who had taken the time to learn their music and was so in love with their culture and their music. So they, they got to feel very proud of their own heritage and, you know, saying even though they might have been more interested in pop music from, for instance, the U.S., there were certainly like, you know what, our music is really strong. This is something that can inspire other people. So even though it's just a minor thing, just the meeting with these people and, you know, the struggle that they had been through and then still being able to be so generous and share their music and give the gift of music was just something that has been so powerful for me. So when I was getting towards the end of working with Papaya, as the group was called, I was inspired to write the song about Ubuntu. Because Ubuntu is a philosophy of South Africa. And it really says that "I am because of you." So no person is an island. I am... I cannot be alone. We are all connected in some sense in this big web of humanity. So that was something that I felt I had experienced. It was a gift that I had gotten personally from that meeting, and I wanted to share that philosophy. And this was also the philosophy of Nelson Mandela and and Archbishop Tutu that was one of the powerful tools that they used in trying to rebuild and heal the South African society after, you know, all this terrible many years of apartheid. So it's just been a very inspirational thought.
Giacomo [00:55:19] Let's hear the beautiful message of Astrid's composition, "Ubuntu Song" performed by Dopplers and the Ubuntu Song World Choir. [00:55:27] [Music excerpt: a chorus sings a rhythmic introduction, over which a female speaks about unity and humanity. The excerpt grows increasingly complex in rhythm and harmony and also with the addition of instruments and drums]
Giacomo [00:59:08] It's fascinating because as Americans, I think one of the things that we grapple with is this notion of white savior-ism, which is, you know, you'll see lots of folks who say, "Oh, I traveled to this country or that country." They take lots of photos and they feel good about themselves and then they go home and nothing changes and they sort of pat themselves on their back. And there's like, "Oh, this is great! We had this cultural exchange." I guess the question for you might be, is that a dynamic that you think about? And then how do you think about the work after those trips and after that work? And how does Ubuntusong kind of contribute to that?
Astrid [00:59:42] I think that's a very good question. And in my years in Papaya, I have experienced very little of that kind of a feeling, basically. But there have been a few times where we have been questioned, you know, "How can you even sing these songs? How can you... How can you take these songs who are not yours? And then you go out and sing them in public." And specifically, there was one moment when we did a "toyi-toyi", which is a very powerful physical movement, that we did in Denmark as a celebration. Or actually it was like we were... I think it was the day of the uprising in Soweto, which, of course, was a terrible day because a lot of young kids were killed in that uprising. So we were doing a memory thing for that with the ambassador of South Africa in Denmark who happened to be, at that time, Nelson Mandela's daughter. Now, there's a lot of action going on, on Facebook and on social media saying, "How can these guys do a toyi-toyi? That is just wrong!" And of course, that made us go, "Well, we have to think about... be aware why we're doing these things and what kind of harm it can potentially do. So it's a good thing to reflect upon. Now, the result was that some of the people that we work with, one of them was Mandela's daughter and also the people that we have met in South Africa. They have said, "You know what? This is a good thing because even though they are white and even though they're from Denmark, they're still being respectful and they're still sharing our heritage and bringing it out there - telling the story of what happened." And I think that's... most of the time that's the best we can do. Of course, we have to be aware that we don't want to harm anybody or hurt anyone's feelings, so we have to be considerate. But we also have to be, you know, authentic and say, "Well, this is really something that I'm passionate about. I'm not trying to misuse or miscredit the South African heritage by doing what we're doing here." So there's always going to be people who are critical and that's totally OK. And that's necessary in a democracy. But we also just have to do what we feel is right. And Papaya or Dopplers... neither of these two choirs are political organizations. So what we are going out and saying and doing through music is not political statements. But even though, it still kind of lands in between because music can be political. So we just have to be open and take that dialogue if it brings us out there.
Giacomo [01:02:30] And speaking about things you are passionate about... looking forward, you have a really fantastic project coming out. It's one of the concepts that you're selling as well, to go back to this discussion before... Nord. You have a new upcoming album called Nord. And by the way, I'm sure I'm mispronouncing that. It's probably much more beautifully said in Danish.
Astrid [01:02:50] I think you're doing very well, actually. We would just say "naugh"
Giacomo [01:02:55] "Naugh" OK, good, I'm going to go ahead and not hurt myself too much patting myself on the back. [laughter from Astrid and Zane] But tell us what we can expect from your upcoming album.
Astrid [01:03:06] Yeah! Now we have for a while actually been diving into the heritage of the Nordic songs. And in Scandinavia, there's a really strong tradition of folk music and also preserving that music. That history has been a little bit different in Denmark, maybe because Denmark has been connected with the continent of Europe. So that has been more hidden - the Danish folk tradition. But it's been... it's been more and more popular now to kind of take that out and finding that Nordic sound. And we have been really interested in doing that. But not only the sound, I mean, there are specific vocal sounds to the north. But it's also the methodology of the Nordic history and kind of the elements of bringing, you know - how did we live with the nature and the elements of water and earth and fire and air. And so we decided we wanted to do this project, which is basically a cyclic project. So it follows the year and it goes through the elements. So in that sense, it's also about the human life. I mean, it's that sense we are also living - each of us has a cycle that we go through. So that's what we're trying to capture with this project and with this record that's coming out.
Giacomo [01:04:26] That's fabulous. We're excited for that. And we will put the link to this upcoming project because you're doing something which is quite clever, I think, which is you're asking folks to help fund this project. So we will definitely let folks know about that. Please, folks who are listening, if you're excited by the things that Dopplers and Astrid are working on, help fund Nord. It would be fantastic! Anything else coming up you'd like us to look forward to anything else we should check out that you're particularly excited or proud of or interested in?
Astrid [01:04:54] Well, first of all, I just want to say that noise is going to be all within the Scandinavian and the Nordic languages. So in that sense, we're kind of going back to the roots after having been, you know, out there in the more multiple languages of popular music there. So we're going back to that. And asking you guys to help us fund it is really to buy the record in advance so that we can get that record financed through that. So that that would definitely be helpful. And then now that the... we're still being in this pandemic times, then we can't do a festival like... usually we have a big festival every second year in Denmark. But instead we're going to do an online festival and it's going to be open and free for everyone to participate. It's called the eAAVF, which stands for Aarhus Vocal Festival. It's going to be at the end of May and it's going to be online and hybrid. So basically there is going to be workshops and representing many different places in the world free of charge. And then there's going to be an evening program with concerts and with interviews. And we're bringing different kinds of... both groups and professional and semiprofessional groups. But also different organizations also from the US who are coming on and just letting us know what they're working on. So that's going to be great to be able to do that instead of the traditional festival until we can do that again. So I definitely encourage you guys to join us and watch.
Zane [01:06:26] What is the current status of COVID considerations in Denmark? Is Dopplers able to get together and rehearse in person or what's happening in that regard?
Astrid [01:06:37] We haven't yet this year. We have been in our second lockdown now for three months. But we just recently just went into the studio, actually, which we were able to do with great distance. So we are continuing our recording project. But I am... I'm thinking that we might be able to meet by the end of April. Yeah, but of course, we will still have to sing with quite a big distance, but not being more than seven singers at the moment, then that is actually... that's looking better for us than probably for most groups in Denmark. So it's been very tough. And trying to do what we can do online is working to some degree. But I mean, it's... it can never replace. Obviously, that's one of the things that I have realized. That there are actually some things that we can still do, even though we don't sing live yet. And I work a lot with all different kinds of groups of both young people and adults and a cappella ensembles and choirs and talk about concert design with, you know, conductors or group members and help them try to figure out what is their... what's their specific thing, you know. And how can we together create programs that engage their audiences and get them involved the way that they feel like this fits with us. Because that's a very personal thing. I mean, there is not a... it's not a right or wrong way to do things. It's very much about finding that personal, sweet spot that works for your ensemble. So that you feel like this fits us, that nobody has put something on you that you then suddenly have to do to realize, but that you can build from where you're already at. And I love doing that work. It's... it's amazing to work with a group and musicians like that. It's so much fun and a learning experience every time. So you are very welcome to do that. And anyone else who hears that, if you feel like this could be something for you, then definitely reach out to me and we will work something out.
Zane [01:08:41] Yeah, fantastic. I'll put your contact information in our show notes as well so the audience can... If anyone is interested in contacting Astrid, they can and find out more information. But yeah, this has been a great conversation. So wonderful to reconnect and to hear, hear about all the things that you've been doing. And yeah, we're excited. Please, everybody is listening. Go out and preorder that CD from Dopplers because it's some great music. They are very, very talented.
Astrid [01:09:10] Thank you!
Zane [01:09:12] Giacomo, anything else?
Giacomo [01:09:14] [laughter] Astrid, thank you so much for your time. This has been really wonderful and enlightening conversation. I've learned a ton. Thank you.
Astrid [01:09:19] So very nice to meet you and great to see you again, Zane. I'm looking forward to be able to follow your project as well. And who knows, maybe someday we will get the opportunity to connect with a group or two, you know. That will be really... that would be really awesome. So...
Zane [01:09:34] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. One of our former...
Astrid [01:09:35] Glad I found your... your podcast as well.
Zane [01:09:39] Yeah!
Astrid [01:09:39] I have to follow you guys for hearing those.
Zane [01:09:43] Yeah...
Giacomo [01:09:43] Our theme song comes from Denmark, from a group...
Astrid [01:09:47] I realized that you guys have a friend here because he had reached out through one of the Dopplers members as well. So there were two channels communicating. So I don't know that ensemble, though, which is actually kind of interesting because Denmark is quite small, but I haven't heard about that group.
Zane [01:10:04] Yeah, they're relatively new. Paul Kim is a former director of my group, and he's the reason that I am the director for that group. But he moved to Denmark many years ago and met a woman while he was there and married her. And he's been living in Denmark ever since making music. And he started that group called Dynamic and they're just doing... doing great music. So...
Astrid [01:10:26] That's cool. I'll have to...
Zane [01:10:28] It's a small world. The music world is a small world. It really, really is.
Astrid [01:10:31] That is comforting, actually, sometimes, you know?
Zane [01:10:34] For sure! Well, this has been great. Thanks so much for joining us, Astrid, and we will look forward to talking to you again soon.
Astrid [01:10:41] That sounds great! Thank you, both of you very much.
Zane [01:10:43] Yeah, absolutely. Take care.
Astrid [01:10:45] Take care!
Giacomo [01:10:46] To take us out this week, let's look to the future. Here are some excerpts from Dopplers upcoming album, Nord. Don't forget to support this great ensemble and pre order your copy of Nord at dopplers.dk. [01:11:01] [Music excerpt: the sound of sea waves underline a chorus singing a wordless song... then segues into another excerpt of a chorus singing with a drum accompaniment]
Outro [01:15:59] Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the In Unison podcast. If you've got ideas for our podcast, please send us a message at ideas@inunisonpodcast.com. And who knows, maybe Chorus Dolores will ask us to talk about it during announcements. In Unison is sustained, nourished, and fostered by you, our loyal and loving listeners. And don't forget to subscribe to In Unison on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. You can find us on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook @inunisonpod. And hey, if you like what you heard, tell a friend or a section mate. Thanks again for tuning in. See you soon.
Chorus Dolores [01:16:38] Chairs and music stand set up for rehearsal by Chorus Dolores, who would like you to lift, not scrape your chairs, please!
Credits [01:16:45] In Unison is produced and recorded by Mission: Orange Studios. Our theme music is Mr. Puffy, written by Avi Bortnick, arranged by Paul Kim, and performed by the Danish vocal jazz ensemble Dynamic on their debut album, This Is Dynamic. Special thanks to Paul Kim for permission. Be sure to check them out at dynamicjazz.dk.