S4E06: God in the Machine: Rex Isenberg’s “Messiahs: False and True,” with Vince Peterson
May 14 2022 update: Get your tickets to see Messiahs: False and True on May 21st in San Francisco! Live stream available as well. More information available at IOCSF.org/events.
Today’s episode is the second installment in our series discussing newly released choral albums, and we’ll be focusing on Choral Chameleon’s new album, Deus Ex Machina. We’re excited to share a fascinating conversation with composer Rex Isenberg about his piece Messiahs: False & True, as well as Choral Chameleon’s Artistic Director (and dear friend of the podcast) Vince Peterson.
And now a word from our hosts!
Music excerpts
Messiahs: False and True - Movement I. Consolamini, consolamini
Messiahs: False and True - Movement III. Populus qui ambulabat in tenebris
Messiahs: False and True - Movement VII. Omnes nos quasi oves erravimus
Messiahs: False and True - Movement IX. Nos autem sperabamus
Episode references
Theme Song: Mr. Puffy by Avi Bortnik, arr. by Paul Kim. Performed by Dynamic
Episode Transcript
Intro [00:00:07] Hello! And welcome to In Unison, the podcast about new choral music and the conductors, composers and choristers who create it. We are your hosts: I am Zane Fiala, Artistic Director of the International Orange Chorale of San Francisco, and I'm Giacomo DiGrigoli, a tenor in IOCSF, the Golden Gate Men's Chorus and the San Francisco Symphony Chorus. And this is In Unison. (I like being in unison!)
Zane [00:00:36] Hey, everybody! Today's episode of In Unison is the second installment in what we hope will be a continuous series of features talking about new albums in the world of choral music. A few episodes ago, we talked about the new album from Tonality called "America Will Be". And today we're going to be discussing the new CD, released just a few weeks ago by Choral Chameleon out of New York, entitled "Deus Ex Machina". The album features two works, both with chorus and organ. The first is "What Are We Becoming" by composer Dale Trumbore, and we actually discussed that composition in episode 403, when we interviewed Dale. The second work on the album, which makes up the majority of the CD, is "Messiahs: False and True", written by Rex Isenberg.
Zane [00:01:23] So, today we're going to get to know Rex a little better and hear about the piece from his perspective, and this episode is actually a twofer. We managed to wrangle Choral Chameleon's artistic director, the incomparable Vince Peterson, into the Zoom call as well, so we'll get to hear Vince's thoughts on the album and Rex's incredible composition. Just like last time, we're going to play excerpts from the album, but not complete tracks. So, if you want to hear this recording in its entirety, please head over to choralchameleon.com and purchase a copy. We guarantee you won't be disappointed. To get us started, let's listen to some of the opening movement of "Messiahs: False and True", written by Rex Isenberg for chorus, organ, bass, drum and narrator. This is "Consolamini, consolamini", performed by Choral Chameleon. [00:02:13] [Music excerpt: an organ is played as a twisting and serpentine accompaniment to a soaring melody sung by the sopranos, eventually joined by all sections of the choir with an urgent plea for comfort and solace.]
Zane [00:04:44] All right! Today on In Unison, we are talking all about a brand new choral album, "Deus Ex Machina", from Choral Chameleon, which was released just a short time ago on September 20th, 2021. And joining us to dive deep into the album, as well as the compositions it features, are Vince Peterson and Rex Isenberg. The CD also features an incredible work by composer Dale Trumbore. And if you check out In Unison episode number 403, you can hear Dale talk all about her piece as well.
Zane [00:05:16] But first, how about a little background info on Vince and Rex? Vince Petersen is a respected choral conductor, composer, arranger and teacher of music here in the United States with a 20 year hybrid career that spans the worlds of choral music, theater, sacred music and music education. In 2008, Vince founded the New York based vocal ensemble Choral Chameleon, and under his leadership, the group has premiered more than 150 works and won a ton of critical acclaim. In 2015, the ensemble was awarded with the ASCAP Chorus America Award for Adventurous Programing, and in 2017 the group was named the first vocal ensemble artist-in-residence at National Sawdust, and undisputed new music hub in New York. In addition to his work with Choral Chameleon, Vince also serves as artistic director of Empire City Men's Chorus. Vince received his bachelor's in composition from the San Francisco Conservatory of Music and a double masters in both composition and choral conducting from Mannes College of Music. And finally, in 2018, Vince was awarded the Louis Botto Award for Innovative Action and Entrepreneurial Zeal by Chorus America. Vince, welcome back to In Unison! Thanks so much for joining us.
Vince [00:06:30] It's great to be with you guys.
Zane [00:06:32] All right! Also chatting with us today is Rex Isenberg, and Rex is a Philly-born, L.A.-based composer whose works touch upon the nature of human relationships, from the personal to the societal, throughout history and the present day. He is also devoted to expanding the catalog of Jewish liturgical music with compositions that honor the spirit of the original text while offering renewed meaning for contemporary audiences. Rex's music has been performed throughout the U.S. and abroad by a tremendous number of ensembles, including JACK Quartet, Now Ensemble, St. Olaf Cantorei, Cantori New York and many others. Rex holds a B.A. in Music from Yale University and a master's and doctorate degree in composition from Manhattan School of Music. Like Giacomo, while at Yale, Rex was a member of the Yale Whiffenpoofs, where he composed several arrangements for the group and toured extensively. Rex, we're really looking forward to chatting with you and hearing more about "Messiahs: False and True", the incredible work you've got on the new Choral Chameleon album. Thank you for joining us!
Rex [00:07:37] Thank you so much, Zane. I'm thrilled to be here.
Giacomo [00:07:40] So glad to have you, Rex. And obviously, Vince, we're old pals, you're a deep friend of the pod. We've had the pleasure of having you before, but Rex - it is very, very nice to meet you. And usually we start these conversations off with a little bit of an icebreaker. So here's a fun one that I wanted to actually pose to the two of you. What was your first impression of each other? I'll toss that to Rex first. What was your first impression of Vince?
Rex [00:08:05] That's a great question! Well, Vince and I have known each other forever, and I have to say that I had kind of two first impressions of Vince. One at EAMA, which is the European American Musical Alliance in Paris in 2008, where we were both attending for the, for a summer composition workshop. And one was when I reconnected with Vince at a concert with the Cecilia Chorus and Choral Chameleon in 2016. The first time I met Vince in 2008, I was kind of an idiot college student who was kind of snobby and serious, and I thought, "Who is this wild child from San Francisco doing all this crazy rep? And... But I remember his musicianship being second to none.
Rex [00:08:53] Time passed and I obviously, or hopefully, evolved and matured, and I continued to follow what he was doing with Choral Chameleon, and I thought it was just one of the most impressive and interesting choral ensembles in New York. So when we reconnected in 2016 at the performance of "Messiahs: False and True" with Cecilia Chorus of New York, and he asked me to be his next composer-in-residence, I was completely floored and incredibly humbled. I'm sure you both know this already, but Vince is an incredibly warm and incredibly wise individual. He has a very kind of like pastorally quality, but so.... those are my, those were my first impressions of Vince at our at, our first meeting and at our second.
Giacomo [00:09:40] [laughter] I share a lot of those sentiments. He definitely is an avuncular figure.
Rex [00:09:44] [laughter] Yes!
Zane [00:09:45] I have to admit, Vince looked a little bit worried when we first asked that question like we were...
Giacomo [00:09:49] I think he was...
Zane [00:09:49] ... like we were about to reveal something.
Giacomo [00:09:51] Oh, I think he was thinking about his first impression of Rex, actually, probably which...
Vince [00:09:56] Oh boy.
Giacomo [00:09:56] Maybe Vince, you'll, you'll delight us and let us know. What did you think when you first met Rex? You know, young, brash college student?
Vince [00:10:06] My initial impression of Rex was "young, brash college student" [laughter from Giacomo and Zane]. No, no, no... I, I, I thought, "Who is that handsome Jewish boy who is, you know, subjecting himself to this intensive month of study in Paris?" He's got to be cool, first of all, because he's here, right? And, you know, going to EAMA, you know, was so cool, the romantic idea of being in Paris, so I couldn't help but notice how absolutely gorgeous he was because I was in a romantic mood - I was in Paris. But Rex, being ever wonderfully self-deprecating as he is, you know, he... we were both different people at that time.
Vince [00:11:02] But I remember... You know, I remember my first impressions of people very well, and I think about people who's moved my insights when I meet them. And Rex certainly was on that list, even though there was a bit of a distance between us in 2008. And then Rex describes it exactly right. We reconnected eight years later in 2016, when Choral Chameleon was making a guest appearance on a concert of Cecilia Chorus of New York, under my teacher Dr. Mark Shapiro, who was conducting Rex's piece, "Messiahs: False and True", which had been commissioned prior to that by Mark's choir Cantori New York, which I previously sang in, which Rex previously sang in. Both of us have a deep relationship with Marc. And so I, I had heard a lot about this piece and I wanted to go see it, and I invited several of the board members and other singers to join us to listen to it. And as you can tell, because we now have recorded it on an album, the piece did not disappoint. And I was so pleased to reconnect with Rex. And you know, what do we say? We all... you know, we change with time. We have life experiences. And I mean, it was at that... At once, it was like time, all that time had not even passed at all. We knew each other, just as we did with the immediacy of EAMA in 2008. But there was immediately a sense, a palpable sense of newness, a new chapter. And I knew instantly that I wanted to work with him in the most intimate way that I can work with the composer, which is as a resident.
Giacomo [00:13:05] So let's talk about that a little bit. Well, let's talk about the beginning of the process of this album and kind of dive in a little bit. Vince, tell us maybe a little bit about the genesis of the concert series for "Deus Ex Machina". Like, how did you get to the point where you were thinking about this notion of God in the machine?
Vince [00:13:22] It's interesting. You know, it was almost like we had some kind of musical telepathy because this was all conceived pre-pandemic, far pre-pandemic. But, you know, Donald Trump had been elected president of the United States and things were not looking good. We could all, I think, see the writing on the wall. And I've always wanted the programing of Choral Chameleon to really speak to the human condition. I've wanted people to leave our concerts with a sense of hope, but also a sense of personal, moral and ethical responsibility - "What can I do to change the world?".
Vince [00:14:03] And you know, I wanted to do a giant concert that said, "It's OK. Like, we hear you. We know how you feel." If there's one thing we all can agree relieves people of their defences so quickly, it's choral music. And, you know, when... When we talked about the residency with Rex... you know, having a residency with us... Actually "Messiahs" was not really part of the residency, it was something that was, you know, kind of a bonus thing, which is interesting because, I mean, I knew that I wanted to perform it with Coral Chameleon. And I knew that I wanted to work with Rex. So, insofar as he would allow me to go into that space on that piece... And we'll talk more about that, I guess.
Vince [00:15:06] But you know. I don't know. I mean, both what Rex wrote in "Messiahs: False and True" and what Dale wrote in "What Are We Becoming" they just seem to be quintessentially the right thing to say... at that time. And now, I frankly think that this current time, the month of September, starting off this year, coming out of being shell shocked with the pandemic, this is the right time to release it to the world as well. So... so, yeah. There you have it.
Giacomo [00:15:42] The timing is spectacular. And as you mentioned, there have been several performances of this piece. But Rex, you've done a few revisions as well. You in fact, you did one specifically for Choral Chameleon, where the two of you worked together. What else did you want to say? What was the revision for you about in 2019 and what did you discover through the process working with Vince?
Rex [00:16:03] That's a great question. I think... It's a little misleading because the score says that it was composed in 2014 and then revised in 2019, but actually I did two revisions. The first time was after the piece was performed by Cantori, and who commissioned the work, and that was a smaller ensemble who was accustomed to doing very kind of thorny, intricate work. And Mark Shapiro, the conductor, wanted to bring it to Cecilia Chorus, which was a much bigger group, and that gave me the opportunity to adjust a lot of the musical ideas to suit a large ensemble. But it actually also proved to be just a generally great opportunity since I came to realize that there's really a market for a kind of big, earworm-y, concert length works that can be performed by community choirs, professional choirs alike - big choruses that I felt were really starving for large works that don't need an orchestra, that have a contemporary sensibility and are satisfying to sing. And there are... There actually aren't a lot of oratorios out there, especially contemporary oratorios. So I wanted to give choirs, who perhaps sang Handel's Messiah during their Christmas concert or every other year, a contemporary companion for that piece.
Vince [00:17:20] So, you know, it's a very kind of singer-satisfying, crowd-pleasing, cost-effective piece. And I think that's part of the reason that it's been performed by four different groups now. The second edit was less about musical changes. There were some, but the biggest change was really with the text, and that's the, the more recent edit in 2019. As the piece started gaining more traction and getting more attention from choral directors I didn't know personally, I realized that I wouldn't have the luxury of spending time with every chorus and explaining the subtleties of the piece. I also felt like the arc of the story wasn't coming through as clearly as I would have liked, and that some of the text were a little too oblique. So I wanted to find kind of more direct examples.
Rex [00:18:05] I also think I just wanted to make some of the references more explicit. I think... When I initially wrote the piece in 2014 and at its premiere, we obviously didn't know that Trump was going to become president. In November 2016. As Vince has already alluded to, you know, the idea of false Messiah became super relevant, even more than I had initially conceived of when I wrote the piece. So, when audiences started to hear the piece performed during the Trump administration, it felt like the piece was referencing Trump, and I decided that reference needed to be made more explicit.
Zane [00:18:38] Let's take a moment and listen to some more of Rex's piece. This is movement three, "Populus qui ambulabat", featuring organist Nathan Taylor, narrator Paul Hecht and percussionist Christine Chen. [00:18:53] [Music excerpt: two deep booms from a bass drum and long, sonorous notes from the organ introduce a narrator: "As he pauses for the night in a village or in the open countryside, great throngs come to him as to a holy shrine. He would seem to be, what the people regard him, the perfect and universal man, simple and undefiled. His endeavor is to wipe out the barriers which divide the people from one another and make them one great united brotherhood. His idealism transcends the boundaries of race and country and seeks to make itself one with the highest hopes of humanity." The chorus enters after the narrator by addressing, and singing in Latin, people who have walked in darkness.]
Giacomo [00:22:16] We've been talking sort of about the piece a little bit, but we haven't told our audience yet a bit about it, and I'd actually like to take a moment to read the description that you offer folks from the liner notes from the album. And folks, if you're listening, go and listen to this album right after, right after this episode. It's really pretty spectacular.
Giacomo [00:22:33] But here's what Rex has to say about "Messiahs: False and True": "Messianic leaders are a perennial motif in human history. During periods of crisis or cultural upheaval, societies gravitate to individuals promising salvation and elevate them to power. Some of these leaders become our greatest heroes, others our most hateful villains. Nevertheless, we find ourselves looking to them for answers again and again. 'Messiahs: False and True', which is written for choir, organ, bass drum and a narrator, explores this phenomenon through a tour of messianic figures - heroic and horrific - throughout history. The narrative of the piece follows society's common response to such figures: anticipation, jubilation, disappointment, condemnation, grief." (And in fact, I believe the movement's actually... It's written in two parts where one is the rise and one is the fall.) "The spoken narration consists of a collage of texts from various messianic leaders and their admirers and critics. Their words are paired with biblical passages used in Handel's Messiah', (as you mentioned, the choirs who were looking to perform Handel's Messiah), 'sung in Latin by the choir, which follows the events of the story and respond to the narration. After this journey, the final words of the piece asks us to consider relying a bit less on our would be saviors and a bit more on ourselves.".
Giacomo [00:23:42] So, clearly some heady topics in there. As Zane mentioned, we spoke with Dale Trumbore a few weeks back about the blurring between the sacred and the secular. And obviously, "Messiahs: False and True" plays with many of the same themes. This is a huge... I mean, you're tackling some pretty big ideas and some pretty big themes here. What was it that drew you to this notion of blurring the sacred and the secular?
Rex [00:24:05] That's a... It's an interesting question. I actually think the relationship between the sacred and secular is quite fluid. In my mind, anything that brings humanity to a kind of higher place of understanding and closer to truth is sacred. So for me, things like scientific development is sacred, and the scientific method is a devotional exercise. The words of our mentors, our teachers, our parents that elevate us to a kind of higher plane of existence are sacred. There are also portions of the sacred canon that feel like secular ideas that were just given a sacred framework to give them legitimacy, that we now recognize as kind of outmoded and not as sacred as we thought they once were.
Rex [00:24:45] I was also raised as a fairly secular Jew and... who has become more interested in Judaism later in life. And I like to engage with, with Jewish texts from a very kind of humanistic and moralistic lens. It's a way of looking at the world and a set of values through which to understand what's happening.
Giacomo [00:25:05] It sounds like for you that this was not really like a slow evolution or realize... I mean, there was, there was something you maybe always sort of felt in the back of your mind. I mean, obviously, Judaism sort of lets us think about the coming of the Messiah and how important that is. But you know, as we spoke about with Dale, sometimes the question is the answer, right? It's the... maybe that sense of like what the hope is or what the longing is that might be more interesting. Was there some flash moment or an event that inspired this shift in thinking like, tell us a little bit about that?
Rex [00:25:32] I think I've always been skeptical of charismatic leaders. I think I'm, I'm never surprised when they stumble - though I'm delighted when they succeed and creating change. But I tend to believe that change, positive change happens more often on an interpersonal level.
Rex [00:25:48] I'll take gay rights or gay marriage as an example, right? This is not to, in any way, diminish the wonderful work of our great civil, gay civil rights leaders. But gay marriage would never have passed if individual gay men didn't start coming out, being open and proud and showing the people around them in their immediate circles, their families, their friends that they were worthy of love and respect and dignity. So it was those individual relationships and those individual changes that ultimately changed our society as a whole. And it wasn't some lightning bolt from a leader who swooped down, who swooped in and changed things for us.
Zane [00:26:27] You know, Vince, I wanted to circle back to you and ask you what the impact this piece had on the singers in Choral Chameleon. Like... What was it like to rehearse the piece and start to get into what the impact was, what the text meant to them? Like, 'cause I know from personal experience that so many of the pieces of repertoire that we sing with our... work with our choruses impacts the singers on such a deep level. And this is a pretty heady piece. So, I'm wondering what the impact was for you guys.
Vince [00:26:56] I don't think there's ever been a time that we've sung this piece, either in rehearsal or performance, where at least one, or often more of the singers or myself, bursts into tears at some point... Did not burst into tears at some point. I don't cry on the podium a lot. I don't. I mean, I'm... It's funny because people who describe me would say that I'm fairly emotional person - extroverted, emotional person. But, I tell you when we performed this at the James Chapel at Union Theological Seminary up here in Manhattan, I don't know what happened - I, I was, I was a mess. I was a mess on the podium. Unfortunately, you know, Rex was not able to be there for that particular performance, but we were, you know, we were on the phone with each other texting back and forth. I mean, we, you know, we were in communication about it.
Vince [00:28:05] I think that, you know, sometimes that, that the stars align, and the constellation just hits all the right points. And this is a piece where it did that. It feels fluid and organic and intuitive for the singers to sing. It's very straightforward in terms of my role as a conductor and what I need to get them to do. It's notated very clearly. And so those conventional things don't get in the way of experiencing what the piece is saying with immediacy. And ultimately, what that does is it elicits a better performance from the singers as individuals, and it's ironic that Rex is talking about, you know, individuals and one to one lateral relationships are where real change happens, that the genuine performance of this piece happens with the individual singers and their relationship to the score and to the subject matter. And I just help it along, you know, a little bit.
Vince [00:29:18] And I would also just add one thing - everything that Rex just said about individualism, rugged individualism, this sort of neo-Waldo, you know, kind of, Emerson mindset, you know the idea of the whole romantic period in classical music, but of course, refreshed and renewed for a new century, a new time - is what has made him the ideal person to be a resident composer for Choral Chameleon because, you know, our singers are very sensitive. They feel it when the composer is disconnected from them. And there was never a moment, in any time that we ever sang anything by Rex that the singers even gave any hint of not getting it, not being connected or not resonating, or not invested, you know. And we sing a lot of crazy stuff, so sometimes it takes a long time to get into a piece far enough to understand what's happening and then the performance changes. This is immediate.
Zane [00:30:26] I have a broader question about this, as well. As a conductor, as a leader of this group of individuals of singers, what do you do to help facilitate their connection to the deeper meaning of texts and not necessarily just with this piece specifically, but overall? Do you have certain practices that you put into place during rehearsals or, like, what do you do to help you get your singers to connect or do they just [snaps fingers]... do it automatically?
Vince [00:30:55] I know that, you know, in a, in a sort of conventional choral methodology, it's frowned upon for the conductor to talk a lot from the podium during rehearsal. But I think, you know, it's worth doing if it's helpful. My job is to be helpful and sometimes more talking is helpful. There certainly were many readings by different members of the choir and myself of the text out loud - hearing it come out of different people's mouths, you know, with different inflects. I generally tend to openly and verbally draw direct connections for them between the compositional techniques, the melodic material, the harmonic material and the text.
Vince [00:31:50] So, for example, you know, in this particular moment, you can tell that the melodic line of the tonal material is less tonal. It's less, you know, "chordy", less diatonic, right? And the text might be talking about something having to do with, you know, evil or discord or uncertainty, unrest, fighting, angst, you know. And, and I think that that's... That's something that needs to be emphasized and pointed out to the singers, and having that discussion changes the sound of the choir immediately after. When you sing it, it's like a different piece - sounds like a different piece after having it. So it's worth doing.
Giacomo [00:32:40] I'd like to talk actually specifically about some of those texts that Rex chose to set. As we discussed, it sort of... the overall narrative arc goes from this sort of hopeful, you know, cheering of the Messiah to this sort of moment of realization, the rise and fall, if you will, and sort of in two halves as you've written it. And some of the texts are pretty, pretty heady. In your piece, you pull quotes actually from all manners of speakers for the narrator, right? So, like things from Barack Obama to Henry Lee to Ronald Reagan, there's a quote about FDR in there. And you really don't spare any spunches... punches. Some folks might still hold on to hope about specific Messiahs, for many years, like there's some things that are critical of Barack Obama, which is pretty fantastic. Since the 2019 revision, what else might have inspired these thoughts for you about this notion of messiah worship? And I'm thinking of figures like Anthony Fauci, who... My god, the man's been run through the ringer! You know, he was the hero for a while, and then there was, you know, "Oh, the vaccines don't work. And science da-da-da-da..." How might the piece evolve from 2019 to today?
Rex [00:33:42] That's a great question. I think political... One of the reasons that I included political and religious figures in the work is because they're just the easiest to understand and probably the most recognizable to posterity. But I think about some of the Silicon Valley tycoons like Mark Zuckerberg or Elizabeth Holmes, who were propped up by venture capitalists and angel investors and tech devotees as these kind of saviors and ended up disappointing on a kind of colossal scale. There are also people like, you know, mark... multi level marketing founders like the founders of Lularoe, (for which Netflix just recently released a documentary) who crafted these kind of cult like followings through charisma and the promise of a better life, but who ultimately ended up kind of destroying the lives of many in the process.
Rex [00:34:34] But I want to note that... I want to be clear that I don't think that all messianic figures are destructive. The piece is called "Messiahs: False and True" for a reason. Many of the figures referenced did actually change the world for the better, indisputably. Some of them were and are monsters. Obama was a positive recent messianic figure, not without his own flaws as well, but someone who people put tremendous faith in to do great things and who tried as hard as possible, as humanly possible to achieve them. But I think I deliberately wanted the collage. I wanted there to be some figures who felt more ambiguous and some figures where the audience comes away thinking, I actually don't know where this person weighs in the balance and I want them to see. I can see... I wanted, I want them to come away thinking, "I can see how this is a pattern and that that pattern may be a dangerous one if we allow the wrong person to take the reins."
Giacomo [00:35:29] A question for both you and Vince, actually, and I realize this is like asking you your favorite child, but is there a particular moment in the piece...? And obviously this probably changes over the course of time or the performances or whatnot. But are there specific moments in the piece that really ring for you that just grab you by the heart and really just sort of shake you a bit?
Rex [00:35:51] I'm curious to see what Vince, what Vince says about that. [laughter from Giacomo]
Vince [00:35:55] So, for me, when I... And yes, that is a difficult question [chuckles]. For me, when I look for things that mean something to me personally in a piece, I'm always looking for the places where I can feel the personal presence of the composer in the score. So when I... When do I feel Rex with me, as my friend? So where are the places in the score where, you know, I almost feel him, put his arm around me and kiss me on the cheek and tell me everything's going to be OK or say one of his little, you know, Rex-isms that you know, that are, I don't know, little inside jokes between us or what have you, for lack of a better expression.
Vince [00:36:55] So, I can tell you a couple of the spots in movement seven of this piece, "Omnes nos quasi oves erramus", I guess in the most personal way, as somebody who's known Rex for a long time, as his friend, as his companion in music, but also as a Christian being embraced by his very close Jewish friends, I feel like Rex is taking me by the hand and showing me the fabric of his heritage. There is a deep, earthy, familial reassurance happening there. It's extremely overwhelming to experience.
Zane [00:38:06] Let's listen to some of that movement now. Here is movement seven, "Omnes nos quasi oves erramus". [00:38:14] [Music excerpt: a hymn-like theme emanates from the organ, then the narrator says, "We're not, as some would have us believe, doomed to an inevitable decline. Let us begin an era of renewal. Let us renew our determination, our courage and our strength. And let us renew our faith and our hope. We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes. They just don't know where to look." A choir sings a gentle melody in Latin, which in English translates to "We all have gone astray like sheep" - sung in way that expresses contrition and almost a resigned surprise]
Vince [00:40:37] That's one of the moments. For me, I would say the, at the recap, at the end where we get to sing the "consolamini" theme again. So, the piece opens with this movement "Consolamini" and Rex, you know... Rex is a master, as far as I'm concerned, of creating a dramatic arc in a piece,you know... Like, he knows text very well, he knows how to arrange texts into a narrative that's cohesive and easy to do. It's one of my favorite things about all his music, really. But, but... in movement nine, "Nos autem sperabamus", we start again with this homophonic, quiet choral, which makes me think of Bernstein, it makes me feel, think of old New York. It makes me remember that Rex, despite his defecting to Los Angeles [laughter from Giacomo], is an East Coaster. Yes, traitor. I mean, singing the word "Yisrael" right there at the end of that chorale and then hearing that "consolamini" be echoed very quietly in the organ, followed by a roll of the drum and this huge bang, "consolamini". I mean, it is the moment when east and west meet and dance, when Jewish and gentile are the same person. And when you know thousands of years of history converge, you know, to give us a glimpse of... God, really whatever that is, you know, for us. And I... I will say this, I will say this, I've, as you know, I've said it many times, I've conducted a lot of music, a lot of new music. That moment for me is definitely in the top 10 musical moments that I have ever conducted.
Giacomo [00:43:03] Wow, that's pretty spectacular. Rex, how about for you? I mean, what, what parts of this movie or maybe actually...
Vince [00:43:08] So there, Rex!
Rex [00:43:10] [laughter] Oh my God. How do I follow that?
Giacomo [00:43:12] I believe. I believe he said he liked the part where you put your arm around him and give him a kiss on the cheek. [laughter from Rex and Vince]
Rex [00:43:19] Please, Giacomo, Zane, please bring me down to Earth [laughter from Giacomo]. I mean, it's actually funny because those are the two moments that I was actually going to point to myself. You know, I think the...
Giacomo [00:43:34] Or conversely, like problem children for you. Yeah.
Rex [00:43:37] Problem children? Um... hmm. Well, I'll start with the movements that I like, and then I'll tell you about the problem children.
Giacomo [00:43:43] Please.
Rex [00:43:44] The problem... Well, I take that back. I'll talk about problem children first [laughter from Giacomo]. The hardest thing was actually the fall. I actually think it's very easy to convey the idea of a kind of rising messiah. Conveying the fall was actually quite difficult just in terms of, one, sourcing texts that were critical from the perspective of the, of the populace. I think that was what I really wanted to convey throughout the whole piece. I wanted the text to feel like - yes, there were some spoken by the actual leaders themselves - but I wanted there to, I wanted the populace's voice to be present. And it was challenging to find texts that were, that were critical... but in a universal way. I know that sounds kind of strange. So I, in the revision of the piece, found this bizarre little manual - I don't even know what to describe it as. And that's this kind of refutation of a condemnation of Andrew Jackson. And it's this really weird kind of text where Henry Lee goes on and on about how no one has been more defamed than this man. No one is worthy of the kind of skepticism and criticism for which he was warranted, and it rang so true with, you know, the way Lindsey Graham was talking about Trump or the way that, you know, people were talking about Brett Kavanaugh when he was...
Giacomo [00:45:22] I was gonna say, "Henry Lee was talking about Andrew Jackson, who was among the worst presidents." [laughter]
Rex [00:45:26] Exactly! Absolutely!
Giacomo [00:45:27] My God.
Rex [00:45:28] Absolutely! And... and bringing that in, I thought really rang very true with the present day, and it showed that this really is a kind of cyclical behavior that we need to somehow break ourselves out of. So, that was a very, that was a very difficult movement to find the right text for. And I was overjoyed when I found that text because I think it conveyed exactly what the sentiment that we were all feeling is, like, "What... Why would you say this about someone who's so abhorrent, who's so awful?" The... I will say that the movement, I agree with Vince that the movements that I feel are intended to be a kind of most touching and most gripping is that seventh movement - that I think, to some way, in some sense is trying to remove some of the blame off of the people who have put their faith in this leader, maybe in a misguided way.
Rex [00:46:29] And it's, it's saying, "I understand why you would want this. I understand why you would, you would reach out. I know that you want help and that the only way that you feel that help can be achieved is through some god, godhead, to come in and save and swoop in and save you. And that's not your fault. That is a natural human inclination.".
Rex [00:46:57] And so, I wanted to create that kind of pastoral moment, that moment of relief, where it's at the moment of the peace when people start to think, "Oh God! Like, what... what am I doing? Is this our fault?" And it's saying, "No! It's not your fault. This is a natural human impulse. But just be aware that this is something that you're feeling." And that moment of sorrow, I think at the ninth movement that Vince talks about is also, I think, really profound. I think there is a moment of recognition. And I hope that the moment comes quicker than it has in the past, that this moment of recognition that like, "Oh, maybe we really did screw up and that we elevated someone who is horrible or who wasn't going to do the job that we needed them to do. And we put too much hope in these people. And maybe we need to... maybe we really need to reconsider and put more faith in ourselves.".
Rex [00:47:53] I actually think, I'm actually very optimistic about this, to be honest, given the election of Joe Biden. I think he was the first president in recent times to really be elected by a very rational public who, some of whom said, you know, "We're putting our individual political feelings aside. Do we want somebody more progressive? Yes, we probably do. Do we want somebody a little different, a little younger, more diverse? Yes, we probably do. But we need somebody who is going to bring some normalcy." On the other hand, I'm also a bit pessimistic because 70 million people also voted for our former false Messiah in chief. So where are we? I'm not sure, but hopefully on a positive trajectory [laughter].
Zane [00:48:37] How about we take a second and hear a bit of one of Vince and Rex's favorite movements of the piece? This is movement nine, "Nos autem sperabamus", depicting perhaps, as Rex suggests, a moment of sorrow, or a moment of recognition that mistakes may have been made, but hopefully we're still on a trajectory that is a positive one. [00:48:59] [Music excerpt: a choir sings a hymn-like song, tinged with regret, with close harmony and accompanied with gentle chords from the organ.]
Zane [00:50:36] I had a thought... What if we listen to one of the movements while we're all on the call together?That way, Vince and Rex can offer commentary while it's playing.
Rex [00:50:46] I love that idea.
Zane [00:50:47] And I thought maybe we could play movement two, "Vox clamantis", because it is a pretty epic movement, and it would be great to hear your thoughts in real time.
Vince [00:50:58] I will say one thing preemptively - you asked about our, you know, our challenging children in this piece. One thing that is deceptively challenging about the piece - though not so challenging that it's frustrating. It's just something you have to really pay attention to - is the synchronization of the bass drum and the lower register of the organ, and that that rings true throughout. I mean, it looks... It actually looks simple because you're like, "OK, I'm getting a percussionist, just one bass drum." And you know, some people might make the mistake of saying, "Oh, we do this at a college and I'm going to make one of my conducting students stand in the back and play the bass drum." This is something that is a job for a real trained percussionist. And Rex's use of the bass drum as an instrument is extensive and idiomatic. But it really requires a lot of focus on the part of the organist and the conductor, and by turn, the choir and the percussionist. And this movement, "Vox clamantis", is a great example of that because the drum is heavily used in this. And I don't know, Rex, I'm sure you remember. We did many takes. Um... [laughter]
Rex [00:52:20] This is a hard movement to put together.
Vince [00:52:21] Yeah.
Rex [00:52:22] But I think an important one. I mean, what's important about this movement is that - in the first movement, actually, the bass drum does not appear at all. In the original version of the piece, it did, actually. There was this kind of very quiet processional, and the drum actually was supposed to resonate with the lowest pipes in the organ. So, the way that the piece was originally construed, it was kind of like a gathering storm from afar when you heard these kind of low pedal tones in the organ and the bass drum. And eventually, in the revision of the piece, I dispensed with that. But the second movement is really the first time in the new version of the piece that you actually hear the drum. And I want it to be as absolutely terrifying and apocalyptic as possible because the tone between first, the first movement and the second movement is so different. You know, the tone of the first movement is so embracing and conciliatory and, you know, comforting and paired appropriately with Obama. And the second movement is paired with, is bombastic and monstrous and paired with Donald Trump. And I want those two dipoles to be felt.
Vince [00:53:44] Let me say also, the one thing that is really brilliant about this is that we are used to hearing this text biblically - this "a voice cries out in the wilderness". We're used to hearing that with joyful anticipation and happiness. Handel's "Every valley shall be exalted, and the mountains and hills shall be made low." It's this wonderful tenor aria that heralds the imminent arrival of, you know, the Christ who is going to come down in his golden chariot [laughter] from the sky. And in this piece, the point is driven home about the problematic nature of that mindset by the fact that the text is reframed as an "Uh-oh... you know, a voice cries out in the wilderness, everybody cover your heads, look out."
Rex [00:54:36] Shrieks from the wilderness,
Vince [00:54:38] Shrieks from the wilderness, and it's marked in the score, "A sudden wind". And nowadays, especially those of us who live in hurricane, you know, areas of this country, a sudden wind is not a welcome thing. [laughter]
Giacomo [00:54:54] No wildfires as well.
Vince [00:54:55] Right, right.
Rex [00:54:57] Yeah, absolutely.
Zane [00:54:59] All right, shall we, shall we listen to movement two then?
Giacomo [00:55:01] Sure.
Zane [00:55:02] I think it sounds like a great idea. All right. This should be it. [00:55:07] [Music excerpt: a driving, relentless rhythm is played loudly on the bass drum, while a choir sings, in full voice and fragmented layers, the words "a voice cries out in the wilderness". The narrator then intones: "The time for empty talk is over. Now arrives the hour of action. This carnage stops right here and right now. From this day forward, a new vision will govern our land. The forgotten men and women of our country will be forgotten no longer. You will never be ignored again." The choir and bass drum enter again with the same clangorous theme.]
Rex [00:57:35] I forgot I was supposed to talk during that [laughter from Giacomo]. But I did have things I wanted to share. I mean...
Zane [00:57:39] We got all wrapped up. I mean, I just didn't want to stop there.
Giacomo [00:57:41] I kept, I kept thinking about like, it's an inversion of the percussion from like "Mass Observation", Tarik O'Regan, right? Where like the percussion is sort of the voice of the machine observing. And this is like the voice of the people threatening and then rising up. Spectacular. I mean, the use of the drum there, the percussion, is pretty spectacular.
Rex [00:57:58] Thank you! I... yeah, I think, you know, one of the things that I wanted, I would have... I should have pointed out while we were playing it was that there's a couple of references. There's a couple of important musical ideas. The first is this idea of a schism and of splitting. You know that, knowing that this, this type of kind of nefarious and messianic like figure can be a divisive force. You hear the chorus start on a unison and sing together and then split, and the chord eventually continues to split and split and split until it's in, until basically each voice part is singing, I think, two or three notes, and it's this kind of nasty chord, and it's the true kind of musical depiction of discord and division. That was a very kind of intentional choice. The piece also makes reference to one of my favorite pieces of choral music, which is Luigi Nono's "Il Canto Sospeso", which is not very performed, but is, I think, a masterpiece and one of the movements is a... It's the, it's I think the setting, if I'm not mistaken. And please, if I am mistaken, I will re-record this. But it's about these, these letters... Luigi Nono sets these letters that were the last letters that people wrote before they were captured by the Nazis. And this one movement, it's the... It says, "the door is open. Here come our assassins dressed in black. How beautiful it is that life is... Or how how beautiful it is that life is so short. Or how sad it is that life is so short." I forget the exact text, but it's absolutely chilling. And this piece very, very explicitly references that music and that kind of, that feeling of just a door swinging open and being, all of a sudden, just captured and rounded up and, and horrified. And having that feeling. So, that's... those were two of the kind of musical ideas that I was trying to convey with this. And then obviously, you hear the very sinister words of Trump, which come from his inaugural, his inaugural address spoken by our wonderful narrator, Paul Hecht. And that really can...
Vince [01:00:25] Bow down to Paul Hecht.
Rex [01:00:26] Oh, what a, what a, what a talent and a hero for doing this piece. But just really hearing the, that kind of frightening, sinister quality after the, after that schism, I think, I hope, is as horrific as I tried to write it to sound.
Vince [01:00:45] Also shout out to Dr. Christine Chen, our percussionist who... and Nathan Taylor, our organist. But I mean, really, you know, it makes a difference, as you know, especially with non pitched percussion instruments, if the person knows what's happening. They get it. They know... and also the, the velocity with which she strikes the drum and the size of drum that's used and everything. I mean, there's... what Rex says about the door flinging open, you know. That, that effect in the score... I mean, it's obviously something that needs to be accentuated, brought out, supported in the musical forces. It's something as simple as using the wrong size bass drum, you know. Or whatever could mess with that. Right? And so props to these wonderful musicians who really gave it some thought and really, really looked at it and figured out what they needed to bring to the table to do that.
Zane [01:02:00] I wanted to ask specifically about the choice to use a narrator. You know, this is something. I've been conducting choral music for a long time and I have to admit I've never had a narrator in any piece of music that I've ever worked with. Have... Is this something you've, a device you've employed before? And you know, I just want to understand a little bit more about the choice to do that.
Rex [01:02:21] It's the first time ever. That piece was the first time I had used it, but it was not the last. I'm actually very interested in the idea of narrative, generally in the choral world, and generally as just kind of an aesthetic idea. I think, you know, if we want to say that each century of music or choral music had an idea, you know, the 18th century was maybe about form, and the 19th century was maybe about emotion. And the 20th century was about sound. I think of the 20th century... As the 21st century as being about narrative. You know, we are in an era right now where we are consuming so much narrative content. We're consuming... People are, you know, bingeing themselves on Netflix, bingeing Netflix. They are, you know, watching TikToks, which are actually, you know, somewhat kind of short form narratives. And I'm very interested in the idea of narrative in choral work. I think it also gives people something to listen for and not just listen to - that it creates a new kind of engagement and directness with a work that I think people are more accustomed to.
Rex [01:03:35] But Vince and his generosity allowed me to explore this technique a few more times in some of the works that I wrote for during my residence. So, "Feathers in the Wind" was one of them, which is a kind of parable of gossip from the Jewish perspective. It sets a fable around a gossiper and the gossiped about basically, and the deleterious effects that that has on all players involved: the gossiper and the gossipee and the community and the community at large - the target, the victim and the community. Maybe that's... Excuse me, the target, the perpetrator and the community. That's probably the best. And that is an idea in Jewish and Jewish thought that the evil tongue, as we say "lashon hara", has three victims, which is the target, the perpetrator themselves and society at large. And because this is a fairy tale, to some extent, and a parable, I felt like using the spoken word was appropriate, and I also felt that it allowed the choir to engage with the work in a very different way. So, unlike in "Messiahs," in "Feathers in the Wind," the choir are actually the narrator. So, you have individuals from the community who are essentially telling a part of the story because they're all involved in the story. Even though gossip starts off with just one person telling another person a rumor, it spreads. And that's kind of the metaphor of the feathers in the wind. It's the unleashing of a pillow and letting the feathers fly out and knowing that it's impossible to to retract them and pull them back. That when, you know, when gossip takes hold, it can consume a whole community and a whole society. So, it also allowed the choristers to have more of an individual voice in the work and to and to get some of their acting skills. I mean, I wanted... I've always been very interested in drama. I wanted to be a musical theater composer. I still have aspirations to write musical theater, but choral music is where I found myself and it's been... it's been a way for me to actually use that medium in a more narrative way.
Giacomo [01:06:01] This has been a fascinating conversation, and I'm so grateful we got the opportunity... and access to both of you to be able to talk about this piece at this level of depth. Which just makes me more excited for the future. And so for both of you, a question I've got... Any new collaborations you two might be working on? Maybe, Rex, anything you were actively working on that you're excited about? New commissions?
Rex [01:06:24] Talk about a piece that is about to be performed in... is going to be performed in 2022 was the last commission I worked on before the pandemic. I handed in the score on March 10th and, obviously [laughter from Giacomo], things changed...
Giacomo [01:06:41] Great timing.
Rex [01:06:41] Terrific timing! But in fact, the piece actually turned out to be much more timely than I thought. It's a piece that was commissioned by the Young New Yorkers' Chorus called "Love Texts" and the conceit behind the piece was "What does it mean to fall in love in Manhattan?", which is one of those topics that is so kind of broad, and... It's hard, it's hard to write a piece around that idea. So, I thought about, you know, this is a, this is a young group, 20 and 30 somethings. Nobody is falling in love through those kind of "meet cutes" that we see depicted in film and television. It's all dating apps and text messaging and online interaction. And so I asked members of the chorus to supply texts, to give me... "What is the most romantic thing anyone ever communicated to you in a text message or in a... Like the most romantic text message you ever received or the most romantic message you ever received on Tinder or Bumble or Hinge or whatever.".
Rex [01:07:45] And I compiled that into a narrative, in three movements. The first movement is kind of about the butterflies that you got when you first meet someone and you're kind of quickly exchanging texts, you know, "do you want to bump into each other again? Can you buy me a shallot?" You know, just the kind of banalities of... You're just excited to engage with another person in a romantic way. The second movement is when you kind of fall into the wall of of a relationship and you're in that kind of honeymoon phase and you're, you know, you're divulging all the reasons that you love this person, "reason number of 537,000 whatever that I love you because you'll follow me anywhere, even into the cold and the dark and the snow to buy a lottery ticket just as I'm trying to get to bed." And then the last movement is when you've really, when you've really settled in and you've reached the point in your romantic relationship where you've seen the other person in all of their seasons and you know who they are and you're showing a kind of renewed love for them. So, you know you're texting about things, you know, "I'm sorry, I was late and that, you know, you had to wait alone. I love you. I'm going to do better. I'm going to try harder, but I'm excited about my future with you." And so, it's the... the rise and fall, or not the rise and fall, I should say... but the kind of trajectory of a relationship from those initial butterflies to the sense of "I know this person, I love this person". And obviously now we're only falling in love virtually. We don't have as much of that human connection as we used to. So, it's funny to have that kind of artifact of what it was like to date virtually pre-pandemic. Knowing that that's kind of been the only way that we've been able to create romantic relationships over the last 18 months. So I'm very curious to hear how the piece is received and performed and felt in a post-pandemic world.
Zane [01:09:42] That's really fascinating and that you said that's going to be performed in 2022?
Rex [01:09:46] May, and yes, in May 2022 by the wonderful Young New Yorkers' Chorus.
Zane [01:09:50] Fantastic. Vince, what about for a Choral Chameleon? What's coming up for you guys?
Vince [01:09:56] Yes, indeed. And I just want to shout out for a moment to the Young New Yorkers Chorus and their conductor is Alex Canovas, who is the former assistant conductor of Choral Chameleon. So, there's a... we're certainly, all of us, very, very proud of Alex and what he has done, you know - all of us at Choral Chameleon, so just wanted to mention that.
Rex [01:10:23] Choral Chameleon is, you know, bouncing back from this pandemic in a big way. We're releasing a new project this fall called "Au Movement", which is a study of motets and madrigals, both from yesteryear and present time but with tai chi like gestural movement. So, the choir is going to be filmed from above and from all sides doing these linear gestures, sets of gestures that are being devised by the singers themselves, within their sections as a response, as an appropriate receptive response to the shape, ebb and flow of their lines. And we'll be able to see them all and the differences in the places where they align. Essentially, it's a new way of using the human body to visualize what counterpoint looks like, what linear composition looks like, so we're excited about that. And in the spring, we're going to be giving what is, to my knowledge, the world's first ever choral sound bath. So we're working with two certified sound healers, both who are members of Choral Chameleon, and our audience will join us sitting on the floor, lying on mats, taking comfortable postures around in a sort of circular sunburst formation, and they will be surrounded by our fifty, fifty-five singers on the outside perimeter with the sound healers in the center using their instruments to create a very strong vibrational healing, physical, palpable feeling, using human voices and these instruments that is designed to just wash over the body and hopefully that will be a healing experience for everybody. It will be Choral Chameleon's first live performance back since before the pandemic. And we wanted that experience to be a healing and meaningful one for the people who might feel anxious about coming back to live performance and are shell-shocked from everything that's happened. So how can, how can what we do be functional, used for a purpose, for a positive purpose?
Vince [01:12:53] So, I'm excited about it. Our singers are excited about it. They all came back after the pandemic, which is pretty incredible to me [laughter]. And we're, we're filled to the brim with singers and and already rehearsing every week and singing to the rafters. So, we're deeply excited about it.
Zane [01:13:14] That sounds so exciting. Whoa! Vince, where can we find you and Choral Chameleon online?
Vince [01:13:21] You can visit Coral Chameleon at choralchameleon.com. Be sure to follow us on Instagram and also on Facebook, if you prefer. And my own website, vincepeterson.com. It has a lot of further information about this and other projects that I'm involved in. So, please do visit us there.
Zane [01:13:44] And folks can pick up the album on choralchameleon.com, correct?
Vince [01:13:49] Yes. Pick up the album on choralchameleon.com. If you pick up the album on the Choral Chameleon website, there are special things that you get with the album by actually spending the 10 bucks and purchasing it on the Choral Chameleon website. You get deep WAV files, which are 44+-bit, lossless audio files... downloadable, as well as the full liner notes and the libretto for these pieces in PDF form and high res version of the artwork that was designed for the cover of the album. So, you can only get those on choralchameleon.com, although the album will soon, not yet, but soon be available wherever you get your music.
Giacomo [01:14:36] And Rex, aside from the Whiffenpoof alumni website, where can folks find you [laughter]... Where can folks find you online?
Rex [01:14:43] Yes, at my website rexisenberg.com is where you can find any news and updates about me and all of my work. That's the best place to find me.
Zane [01:14:56] Beautiful. And of course, as always, we'll put links to all of these things in our show notes so that our listeners can navigate quickly and easily to find you both online and learn more about all the amazing projects and music that you're putting out into the world because we... We want to ring the bells loud and clear because this is some really inspiring stuff.
Rex [01:15:19] Thanks so much.
Zane [01:15:20] Well, thanks so much, guys, for joining us and talking about the new album.
Rex [01:15:24] Thank you.
Zane [01:15:24] I have listened to it multiple times and I encourage all of our listeners to go out and do the same. It is spectacular music. It is so well put together. Vince, you've done a great job. Rex, your music is inspiring. It's just been really great to talk to both of you and... Yeah, hopefully we'll get a chance to talk to you again soon.
Giacomo [01:15:43] Indeed.
Vince [01:15:44] Thank you, guys.
Rex [01:15:45] It's been fun to be here, Zane. Thank you.
Vince [01:15:46] Love you all.
Zane [01:15:47] What better way to wrap up this episode than with the final movement of "Messiahs: False and True". This is movement ten, "Man Is His Own Star". [01:15:59] [Music excerpt: a fanfare bursts out of the organ before the narrator says: "Our chief want in life is somebody who shall inspire us to be what we could be. Stand with a leader that stands right. Stay with him while he is right, but part with him when he goes wrong. If you make yourself a sheep, the wolves will eat you. We can have faith in the future only if we have faith in ourselves." The chorus then enters with text that begins with "man is his own star", written by Ralph Waldo Emerson.]
Zane [01:17:57] If you want to hear the very end of this monumental work, please head over to choralchameleon.com and get yourself a copy of the entire "Deus Ex Machina" album. A link is in the show notes.
Outro [01:18:09] Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the In Unison podcast. Be sure to check out episode extras and subscribe at in unison podcast dot com. You can follow us on all social media @inunisonpod. And leave us a review on Apple Podcasts to let us know what you think!
Chorus Dolores [01:18:29] Text translated from the original ancient Icelandic by Chorus Dolores, who still doesn't get to talk.
Credits [01:18:41] In Unison is produced and recorded by Mission: Orange Studios. Our transcripts have been diligently edited by IOCSF member and friend of the pod, Fausto Daos, and our theme music is "Mr. Puffy", written by Avi Bortnik, arranged by Paul Kim and performed by the Danish vocal jazz ensemble Dynamic on their debut album, This is Dynamic. Special thanks to Paul Kim for permission. Please be sure to check them out at www.dynamicjazz.dk.