S3E05: Powerhouse Community College Choirs: John Knutson of Cuesta College
This week, we’re in conversation with John Knutson, director of choral music at Cuesta College in San Luis Obispo, CA (one of Zane’s alma maters!), about his 20 year tenure at Cuesta and the role of community college programs in furthering choral excellence.
Music excerpts
“Adam Lay YBounden” by Hubert Bird, performed by Cuesta College Chamber Singers
“The Kicker” by Joe Henderson, performed by Vocalogy
“I’ve Been in the Storm So Long” traditional, arranged by Jeffrey L. Ames, performed by Cuesta College Chamber Singers, soloist Autumn Cone
“Hide and Seek” by Imogen Heap, performed by Vocé
“Grass Grows Greener” by Anders Edenroth, performed by Vocé
“A Boy and a Girl” by Eric Whitacre, performed by Cuesta College Chamber Singers
Episode references
Theme Song: Mr. Puffy by Avi Bortnik, arr. by Paul Kim. Performed by Dynamic
Episode Transcript
Intro [00:00:01] Hello! And welcome to In Unison, the podcast about new choral music, and the conductors, composers and choristers who create it! We are your hosts: I am Zane Fiala, Artistic Director of the International Orange Chorale of San Francisco, and I’m Giacomo DiGrigoli, a tenor in IOCSF, the Golden Gate Men’s Chorus, and the SF Symphony Chorus. And this is, In Unison! (I like being in unison!)
Zane [00:00:35] Let's open this week with a performance by the Cuesta College Chamber Singers in San Luis Obispo, California, performing "Adam Lay Abounden" under the direction of John Knutson. [00:00:46] [Music excerpt: sopranos introduce and sing a flurry of fast notes with the text "Adam lay ybounden," eventually joined by altos, tenors and basses. All sections of the choir maintain this speed in a nimble and lively interplay throughout the duration of the song with occasional soaring descants provided by the sopranos.]
Zane [00:02:10] All right, today on In Unison, I am excited to welcome a longtime friend and colleague, John Knutson. John is the director of choral studies at Cuesta College in San Luis Obispo, California. And in fact, this year, he is celebrating 20 years at Cuesta. Congratulations on that milestone, John!
Zane [00:02:27] John's first year at Cuesta is actually my final year there. And I can actually give him credit for being the very first person to allow me to conduct a choir way back in 2001. Under his direction, Cuesta's Vocal Jazz Ensemble Vocé has performed at the American Choral Directors Association National Convention, the Montreux Jazz Festival and the Jazz Education Network National Conference. And the Cuesta Chamber Singers have received awards in both the California International Choral Competition and the vokal.total competition in Graz, Austria. John was a member of the professional vocal jazz ensemble Vocalogy, which was formed by Phil Mattson and has also directed the California All State Vocal Jazz Choir. And in 2009, John was elected Cuesta College's Teacher of the Year. John holds a master's in conducting from Northern Arizona University and a bachelor's in piano performance from the University of Minnesota. John, thanks so much for joining us today!
John [00:03:27] You're welcome, Zane. And I'm only 31 years old. All that stuff! [laughter from Giacomo and Zane] As I hear all that, I'm like, "Damn! That guy must be old!" [laughter from all]
Giacomo [00:03:39] Well, John, it's very nice to meet you. And yes, that is quite the impressive bio. To let our audience know a little bit more about you, we always start with an icebreaker. And here's one for you: as a teacher, you, I'm sure, constantly are doling out advice to students and sharing advice with other faculty and folks. But what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given yourself?
John [00:04:04] You know, it's funny because this may be counterintuitive, but I think the best advice I got was when I went to my piano teacher, I think I was a junior, probably getting ready for my junior recital and feeling very frustrated. I said, "Do you think I have what it takes, you know, to be a piano major, to be a music major in general?" And he said, "You know, if you can do anything else, you probably should do that." [laughter from John and Zane] Which was harsh, right?
Giacomo [00:04:37] Whoa!
John [00:04:37] Harsh, right? Except for... I took it because that's how damn much I wanted it to mean like, "Well, I can't do anything else. I really want this, you know." But I've always kind of passed that advice on to my students in that, you know, if you're going to be a music major, you have to go all in.
Zane [00:04:54] So John, why don't you tell us just a little bit about your musical journey. You know, where did you grow up? Where did you start studying music or when, you know? Did you go to a two year community college yourself? Tell us a little bit about your story.
John [00:05:07] Sure. OK. Set a timer. [laughter from Giacomo] I'll try to keep this short. [laughter from Zane] Yeah. I mean, I always remember loving singing. You know, like church songs and [singing the melody of song] "like a rhinestone cowboy". It was one of the first songs I ever sang. [laughter] And "Raindrops keep falling..." No. Yeah... "Raindrops Keep Falling on My Head" and "The Rainbow Connection". Now those are like, you know, first, second, third grade tunes that I did solos with and stuff. So I always knew I loved that. I played violin when I found the violin in my grandma's attic when she died. I was in kindergarten. Umm... And then I really loved harmony and I really wanted to play guitar. And my mom... speaking of teachers that lie to us and stuff or whatever, my mom told me, "You have to be able to read bass clef to play guitar." So she tricked me into playing piano. [laughter from Zane] And then it kind of worked because when I started playing guitar, I realized I like piano better really, you know. Umm yeah. And then I... and then I got a bachelor's degree in piano and then I went out to New York because I had some hand injuries, some like nerve problems in my hands. And there is a specialist out there and a special hospital that you gotta audition into even. So, anyways, I got back to playing piano. But in the meantime, while I was kind of struggling for a year, not playing piano much, I joined a... It was actually sort of like a barbershop doo wop group, but their gig was at a... a club in Greenwich Village. So we sang like four nights a week at this club in Greenwich Village, singing old TV shows, theme songs [laughter from Giacomo], and it was sort of like a big interactive act where we would take requests and stuff like that, you know, like a cabaret kind of thing. So then I knew I was really hooked into singing in harmony. And I kind of knew it was always from piano I was into harmony. And then when I knew that singing and harmony go together, I really thought I should get a masters in choral conducting, which I did. And I also went to a community college and I got an AA in jazz somewhere in there too.
Zane [00:07:07] Where was that community college?
John [00:07:09] That was in Iowa. It's called the Southwestern Community College, and within that they have the School for Music Vocations. S.M.V. was the thing. And that was with Phil Mattson.
Zane [00:07:19] Did you grow up in Iowa?
John [00:07:21] No, I grew up in Minnesota. I just happened to have a friend that lived in New York that went to the University of Minnesota with me, and she moved out to do this program. And then I thought, "Yeah, OK. If she's willing to do it..." She kind of talked me into it, you know?
Zane [00:07:35] Yeah.
John [00:07:35] Yeah.. yep. And she wasn't my girlfriend [laughter]. It wasn't even about that. It was just a cool program.
Giacomo [00:07:41] I was going to say, I feel like I've heard this story once or twice.
Zane [00:07:42] Yeah, totally right? [laughter from Giacomo and Zane] No, I actually like, broke up with my girlfriend in New York to go out there and do this program. Believe it or not. That's how much it drew me, you know, and it was a good relationship in New York. And I didn't date the girl who talked me into it. It wasn't really about that at all.
Zane [00:07:57] So on that journey, was being a music educator always a part of the plan? Was it something that you always had in your... in your mind?
John [00:08:03] Oh, that's so funny. Yeah. So I forgot that. So when I was in New York, I did that cabaret group, but that was, you know, like a night gig and didn't pay very much. During the day, I was a museum guard and then one of the guards from Haiti, he said, "You know... Hey, you should go up to the Board of Ed and you can be a paraprofessional. It's way better than standing here hour after hour in a museum, you know?" And so I went up to the board of Ed and they said, "Wait, you have a bachelor's degree. You can be a teacher with an emergency certificate." And like a total, like knowing nothing, I just stepped into that fire at a... I taught sixth and eighth grade music at a junior high school in Brownsville, Brooklyn. It was the same junior high school that Mike Tyson went to. It was a tough school. It got taken over by the state while I was there because it was performing so badly and yeah, it was rough. I had knives pulled out on me and, you know, scratches from kids. And it was... it was rough times. But weirdly, in that there was the spark of joy of teaching. Like I was no good at it. I'm not going to pretend like I was super effective that year, but it was effective on me. I discovered that I really do love teaching, which I had never considered because, yeah, I got a bachelor's in piano performance and went out to New York to study piano performance and how to do it while I was injured and I started singing. But there was nothing in there about education. So I'm glad you brought that up, Zane.
Zane [00:09:25] Yeah.
John [00:09:27] Yeah, that was kind of an accident.
Zane [00:09:29] Yeah [laughter]. So in the midst of all of that, where does Vocalogy fit into that timeline?
John [00:09:35] OK, so yeah, that was pretty much later. So I did my bachelor's, did my AA in Jazz, did my master's in music and choral music in Arizona at Northern Arizona University with Dr. Edie Copley. And then Phil Mattson kind of called back his all-star gang of people he'd ever worked with in the last ten years or so. So Phil Mattson, he has a couple of Grammy nominations as a writer in jazz and an educator. So he called us back to that school where I studied with him. And I came back there as a faculty person then and part of this faculty group called Vocalogy. And then that kept going, yeah, from 2000... we started without him and we pretty much ended at the end of 2016.
Zane [00:10:17] Oh, wow. That was a good long run.
Giacomo [00:10:19] I would love to talk a little bit about that. Using one of the tracks from Vocalogy, there's a piece you performed that we found on your YouTube called "The Kicker".
John [00:10:25] Oh, cool!
Giacomo [00:10:26] And oh man! That piece, the tuning precision, the ensemble's sense of rhythm... awesome!
John [00:10:32] Mm hmm. Was it a live performance?
Giacomo [00:10:35] It was a live performance.
John [00:10:36] Oh cool!
Giacomo [00:10:36] How do you... how do you achieve that as an ensemble and then, relating it back to Cuesta, how do you teach that?
John [00:10:46] Yeah, it's just a common... I mean it's the same as choral music. It's just the rhythms are a little trickier... but not even. I mean, with modern choral music, there's harder harmonies and there are harder rhythms, quite honestly. And the thing about jazz, especially sort of straight ahead jazz, is it... it's a pretty, umm, it doesn't have a ton of variables. There's maybe... I mean, there's the 15 major and minor chords and diminished and... I mean, when you add all of it there's about 60 chords that way, you know. And then all there are some extensions added on top and the voicings are almost always the same. So once you can kind of learn how to hold your part and tune it, you really have it for all those chords. Not that that doesn't take years, but the variables are a lot less than in classical choral music, which spans a thousand years and in the whole world of different voicings and harmonies. And then rhythms, too, especially in swing or in Latin, there's only a certain number of rhythms that really dance that really move your body. And so they're also a little bit predictable. Once you learn it, if you're just stepping into the language or just kind of you like to dance, but you never pay attention a lot, it seems infinitely complex, but it's not. And helping open up that world to our students with theory and arranging classes and showing them on the keyboard, you know, how these things work. I think it really helps them a lot to kind of see the bigger picture. And then lastly, it's just practice makes perfect. You just take two bars and you might rehearse it for 15 minutes...
Zane [00:12:05] Mmm hmm.
John [00:12:05] ... And live in that world, you know what I mean? People don't know how many thousands of hours go into this just to create a concert.
Zane [00:12:12] Here's Vocalogy now with their live performance of "The Kicker." [00:12:16] [Music excerpt: a woman sings a solo over a snappy rhythm section, accompanied by harmonic contributions from the rest of the vocal ensemble. The woman's solo progresses from lyrics to passages that feature scat singing.]
Zane [00:14:22] Let's take a second and pivot back just to talk about Cuesta specifically, just because, I mean, as you mentioned, it is a small... San Luis Obispo, a small part of California, Cuesta College, not the biggest school in the, in the country. So maybe some of our listeners might not know anything about Cuesta. So maybe let's talk just a little bit about it more specifically so we can give our audience a sense of place. So how many other community colleges are there in the general area that are near to... near to Cuesta?
John [00:14:55] About an hour south, 45 minutes south is Allan Hancock, which is in Santa Maria.
Zane [00:15:01] Do they have a music program?
John [00:15:02] They do nominally, you know. They have a choir. It's more like a community choir. And um... and I think they have sort of a jazz ensemble and a wind ensemble that are also a little more like once a week community groups. It's... yeah, it's not a big program. And most students down that way come up our way - they tend to. And then that's it. Like you have to go all the way up to Salinas, I believe, to find the next community college, you know.
Zane [00:15:31] So Cuesta's program is relatively robust for the area. It's kind of... it's kind of the place as far as music programs in a community college scene.
John [00:15:39] Yeah, we're lucky that way in that we're kind of big fish in this little pond in terms of that, you know. And also where we're like a small, medium-sized fish in a very rural pond. How about that? And then also, it's... it is a beautiful college destination because of Cal Poly. So traditionally we've had really cool students come here that maybe are just trying to transfer into Poly and think it'll be an advantage, go to Cuesta. Or like their big brother goes to Poly and they didn't get in. But they just want to be up here and enjoy the college scene, you know? So it's a pretty diverse area and equally equidistant from the two big hipster areas of California, you know, the Bay Area and in L.A. So, yeah, I feel like we're uniquely situated that way. And it's probably why a small college, I think, can have, you know, one of the better programs in the state.
Zane [00:16:31] So tell us a little about the choral ensembles at Cuesta. How many choral ensembles are there? What's the size of those groups?
John [00:16:39] Well, hopefully temporarily, there's only two choral ensembles right now. There's Vocé and the Chamber Singers. We just kept the two top groups during the pandemic.
Zane [00:16:49] But prior to the pandemic, were there more?
John [00:16:51] Yeah, prior to the pandemic, there were two vocal jazz groups and two choirs, kind of a feeder vocal jazz group that feeds into Vocé. And then there's the bigger concert choir that is almost a "y'all come" choir. If you can match pitch, you can be in that choir for sure, you know. And then, yeah... So temporarily, the Chamber Singers is just kind of housing most of those. Some of them I... that wouldn't. Well it's... I shouldn't say most of them. A lot of students I kind of discourage from doing right now because we rehearse outside 10 feet apart with masks on. Yeah, so a lot of those students end up going into the voice class right now. So the Chamber Singers is still fairly elite. It's got a few greeny people, green people. But I mean, man, they have to sing 10 feet apart. Can you imagine that when you're younger, like, just the pressure, knowing that the conductor can hear every single thing you're doing and you're not really hearing the other people very much at all because you're outdoors, they really have to know their part. I kind of have really dug it this year because the students have discovered this new level of how accountable they can be, you know?
Zane [00:17:53] So let's let's go back pre-... Let's kind of pretend like we'll go back before COVID times, because obviously that changed the dynamic of so much as far as choirs go. So what, pre-pandemic... What are the characteristics that made the Cuesta College choir program strong?
John [00:18:15] I would like to say strong feeder programs like what the younger... what the younger kids are bringing to the table is huge because then you don't have to start from scratch, you know? And we don't have very big high schools here. And some of them have more younger conductors or even maybe more of a turnover going with conductors. But there's always been a couple that have been really key, I think, in our program. It's SLO (San Luis Obispo) High School, Morro Bay High School, Atascadero, Templeton for a long time. And I feel like those directors and what they could send me was really helpful for a starter, you know? And then I think a culture of excellence within the department has been really helpful, you know. It's not just the choir, but it's the theory class and the piano class and the wind ensemble and the jazz band and in the sense of kind of holding up a high bar for everybody. So when they come into the building, they kind of know this is something to take pride in. And it helps them take pride in themselves. The touring has been helpful. I think that always kind of energizes students. And typically, since I've been here, we've gone every three years to Europe and done like a two or three week, two to three week performance tour.
Zane [00:19:31] Yeah. Some of my fondest memories from Cuesta are the tours that we took. [laughter]
John [00:19:36] Absolutely. Yeah, you probably went in 2000 to Europe, right?
Zane [00:19:39] I did, yeah. Montreux, 2000.
John [00:19:41] Yeah. Yeah. Supercool. I mean, and recordings. Recordings are a little bit I don't know, it's kind of a little bit of a letdown. Like maybe, maybe I need some guidance through this, you know, because it used to be the product was you would hand CDs out to the students and they would feel like, like the bomb getting this stack of CDs with their picture and their name on it. And you know what I mean - something to hold on to?
Zane [00:20:01] Mmhmm.
John [00:20:01] And now they get an email with, like, the YouTube link.
Zane [00:20:05] Right.
John [00:20:05] That's all they get, you know. [laughter] But I mean, it's easier for them to share for sure. They can spread it out to everybody. But... but, you know, we all get buried in YouTube links. Yeah.
Giacomo [00:20:17] We also... John, as part of those recordings that we were listening to, is your chamber ensemble also did some recordings and you recorded the spiritual "I've Been in the Storm So Long" and I don't know who the soloist was. Her voice was absolutely lovely. The recording was just absolutely breathtaking. And the whole thing was sung beautifully.
John [00:20:35] Yeah. Props to Autumn Cone - still one of my favorites. Yup.
Giacomo [00:20:39] Really great. Just an absolutely lovely sound. And we were talking about this because spirituals occupy a really special place in the landscape and canon of American choral music.
John [00:20:49] Mmhmm.
Giacomo [00:20:49] What was your process in rehearsing this piece? Like, what resources do you call on and consider when you're leading singers through that text?
John [00:20:56] When I first did it, it was so it was so easy to lead because I first did that piece back in 2005 or '06 after Hurricane Katrina. It was actually arranged and put together in response to that crisis. And that one, you know, hit students pretty hard back then. More recently, I think I was still informed by that and the memory of that piece and stuff. So the recording you have is a little more recent. But... in some ways, I'm not even sure you need to tell students about that, though, like you guys might agree with me when you hear just the... the mood and the pangs. And I think it's some combination of the arrangement and the composition. It's a... it's a spiritual. So I guess it's not really composed. Right. It's just a folk song that's been passed on, you know, orally...
Zane [00:21:44] Arranged.
John [00:21:46] Yeah. So, I mean, so the... I shouldn't say the composition, but just the song and the arrangement together just kind of pull that out of you, you know? [singing the melody of the song] "Been in the storm so long" It just pulls that. I think all of us have that feeling within us. Teenagers, probably more than anybody, you know, this... this feeling of wanting to move on, but being held back, you know?
Zane [00:22:12] I did just listen to that recording just before this conversation, and I was quite moved. It is a beautiful performance. Can you say the name of the soloist again?
John [00:22:21] Yeah, her name is Autumn Cone.
Zane [00:22:23] Autumn Cone...
John [00:22:23] Yeah.
Zane [00:22:23] Beautiful. Really, really gorgeous.
John [00:22:25] Arranger... Is it Jeffrey Ames? Jeffrey L... Jeffrey Ames is the arranger. Yeah.
Zane [00:22:31] Let's listen to a bit of that culture of recorded musical excellence. Here's the Cuesta College Chamber Singers performing the spiritual "I've Been in the Storm So Long". [00:22:40] [Music excerpt: a choir sings an accompaniment composed of "oohs" before a soprano soloist sings a plaintive melody with the words "I've been in the storm so long, children. Just give me little time to pray"]
Giacomo [00:27:09] So, John, you talked a little bit about how, you know, some of the high school programs or feeder programs, and so you're painting a picture of sort of this younger population, kids who are in high school coming in. But you're also a community college choir. And so I have to imagine that some of the members of the group are just folks who are in the community. How... do you recruit as well from members of the community as well? Like folks who were just like, "Hey! That's an awesome choir and I'm going to take some credits and jump in just because I want to sing."
John [00:27:36] We have an embarrassment of riches with community groups. We have a summer choir that gets together with the community. We have Vocal Arts Ensemble, Master Chorale. Canzona is a women's chorus and there's a North County Chorus. Yeah, seriously, all of those things within the small population. So... and my groups rehearse right in the middle of the day and every once in a while I'll get like a student who's over 35 come in, or over 45, and they often don't stay because they kind of feel the vibe is the sort of 18 to 20 kind of vibe, you know. The general... almost everybody's 18 to 20. There's a few 21, 22, 23 year olds. But it's definitely a classic community college kind of age group. With a pandemic coming on though, it has... I moved the rehearsals in the nighttime. For two reasons: one, in order to rehearse outside, the campus has to be quiet and there can't be people squeezing through us to get to the bathroom or to get to their art class, et cetera. So I had to move it at night time just for the quiet-ness of it. And then also I was really worried about enrollment and I was hoping to rely on a few community people. So in the nighttime, I actually got a hold of some alums and some people in the community to help bolster our ranks, you know. And I might keep going with that. I do... I used to always take pride and I just always loved teaching the younger students. I felt like they were clay to be molded and to send forth and to do great things in the musical world. But now it's been really rewarding to work with community people. I never knew because I've literally never done... except for a couple of church choirs. I haven't done a community choir and...
John [00:29:14] So I might keep it going. I might actually pick a night and slowly kind of like somehow eke out my own community group. But I might almost have to wait till one of those other people retires. I mean, literally, I think I named about five different community groups and anything... I think when you start to get that many, it's almost a zero sum game. And I don't want to, like, recruit away from those, you know?
Giacomo [00:29:35] What are those community members bring to the table? I mean, what is it about having those folks as part of your rehearsal and performances that is exciting?
John [00:29:44] Well, I wish I had... you guys could talk about that more with expertise. I know it - because mine are just people that I knew from my former alums and they were kind of my "golden children." Like I picked, I picked my first choice people. And I was shocked that they all said yes, because what else are they going to do right now? [laughter] None of the other community choirs are doing anything in the pandemic and any of them that had gigs and that kind of thing, you know, those gigs aren't happening. So I literally just picked like seven of my favorites last fall and they all said yes. And then after that, a couple of them didn't do it again. I think they weren't thrilled with having to sing outdoors and all that and the mask. And, you know, and a couple of them just went on to do other things, hit grad school and things like that. So I asked about three or four more replacements for this semester. We can only fit 24 into our circle. So, you know, if I have like 19 regular community college kids that register, then I can only bring in six... or five alums kind of a thing. So I don't have much experience with alums. It's only the ones I use just to kind of fill up the choir. And it was a handful and they were just champions. Like what they brought was my all-star best kind of product. You know, they brought me Zane Fiala [laughter from John and Zane]. Literally! A bunch of Zane Fialas in there, man. Maybe they're not as good of conductors, but they're good singers. Good musicians.
Zane [00:31:02] Yeah, I remember Cuesta being such a special place with this really high caliber of music making, you know, considering as a two year school. You know, at the time that I was at Cuesta, I don't think you could get an associate's degree in music. It was just... there was just a great music program. Is the caliber of music making across all of the ensembles instrumental as well still really high. Would you still rank it up there with, as you know, one of the best in the state?
John [00:31:32] I think I think after you left saying it grew and grew and grew. So I think... I think the program got... You'd be surprised even through like 2015-2016, you probably would have come back and thought, "Wow! They sound better than I remember us sounding."
Zane [00:31:45] Well, I know we're going to get into talking about the role of the community college and overall music education. But before we get to that, let's just take a quick little break.
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Zane [00:32:33] And we're back! [laughter from all].
Giacomo [00:32:33] We were just chatting during the break, actually, and I wanted to ask John, you know... you mentioned sort of a little bit of the changing demographics, the size of the group. You know, some things are certainly lost within that. Right? And sometimes a little bit harder to recruit and maybe or find folks who have quite the same sound. But what things are gained when you were able to have a little bit more attention on the folks within an ensemble? What do you get in terms of the closer relationships you might have with fewer people?
John [00:33:00] Yeah, that's a cool question! I feel like the caliber of the concerts we put on is just as good as ever. Zane was just even talking about being down a few... just a year and a half ago or whatever and conducting my group and stuff. They're smaller. They might just be four basses instead of eight basses or something. But they still have that sense of excellence in that tradition. And they know that from hearing CDs and watching YouTube videos. And it just gets passed on, you know, member to member, year to year and stuff. And so, yeah, they still have to be mighty, even though they're smaller. And I think that each individual has to be just slightly more heroic, which is probably the best way to be doing education - to be a hero, right? Like, you know, to lift... it's like... it's muscles and brains, brain muscles that you're working on. And I think the harder you work that, the more you learn and the better you are as a human, and I think that the students are having to find that - doing the same, generally the same repertoire in the same tours and the same recordings with just smaller numbers of them. So it's been pretty cool.
Giacomo [00:34:04] Yeah, it's interesting. The reason we ask is because obviously with COVID, I think lots of choirs and probably lots of folks who are listening right now, there's probably gonna be a degree of attrition, you know? We're all probably gonna see our numbers down slightly or... who knows? We may actually see that once we get over the, you know, the other side of this and come through the portal and that we're, you know, we're all suddenly, like everyone is hungering and dying to sing again. So we may need to be prepared for a swell in numbers, which will be very interesting. Pull out your big choir rep.
John [00:34:35] Yeaah, totally! [laughter]
Giacomo [00:34:36] Well, John, as a director, I'm sure your ears are probably more critical than the average audience member who's listening. But, I have to say, because we had the pleasure of listening to your recordings or several of the recordings, particularly the Vocé group, and I know that there's one piece that Zane and I have talked about, which we just thought was really fun because we've been talking about vocoders and such. Zane, what was the piece? What was the name of that piece?
Zane [00:35:00] "Hide and seek", the Imogen Heap piece.
John [00:35:02] Yeah. And if you guys ever want, I gave you umm... we did that song back in about 2008 and we recorded it in a studio live, you know. I mean, we would get maybe 8, 16 bars done at a time and stop and then do 8 or 16 bars again. But it was just live. It was all singers always singing together. We never did any tracking at all and never did any punches or any of that fancy studio stuff. We just sang it as long as we could and we'd stop and take a drink of water and keep going, you know. And then by contrast, we also did that one last December as a virtual choir piece where everybody just sang at home and sent me the tracks. And I've compared and contrasted those two and I like both of the recordings. In some ways I like the virtual one better - crazy enough. Yeah...
Zane [00:35:47] Really? Why? What makes you say that?
John [00:35:49] Um... I think well, I hate to say it, but I kind of like the tempo better, which is just like a choice I could have made back in 2008, you know. Umm... and maybe there's a little bit of an advantage to have everybody on separate mics - it maybe gives a little cleaner of an audio recording sound, you know. And by last December, my students, thanks to some carrot grants with CARES funding and stuff, they're all able to get a decent mic. And for 150 bucks, you can get like a gold and beautiful mike anymore. For 50 bucks, you can get a pretty good mike. Yeah, but I don't know. Maybe you guys can listen to him someday and you guys can compare which you like better, too.
Zane [00:36:25] Oh, we intend to.
Giacomo [00:36:26] We're gonna... we're gonna play them on this program.
John [00:36:28] Yeah. They're a little too close to home for me to even quantify why I like something better or not. And, you know...
Zane [00:36:34] Let's hear that virtual recording of Cuesta Vocé singing Imogen Heap's "Hide and Seek" [00:36:40] [Music excerpt: a choir is singing and arranged to sound similar to vocoder effects - tight harmonies, synthesized and all vocal parts moving simultaneously on the same words.]
Giacomo [00:40:57] You know, I was going to ask, what was it that inspired you to program that piece in the first place?
John [00:41:01] Oh, I swear, like, half of my repertoire is student led. Yeah. And within the classical world, too. I think ever since the Internet came out, students have been... if they happen to be slightly more geeky than me, which is pretty often, they like live and there's the whole beautiful rabbit holes of the Internet. I know we talk a lot about other dark holes of the Internet nowadays, but with choral music, it's a beautiful, dark hole, a beautiful bright hole you go into. So they bring me these pieces. They brought me Imogen Heap back in 2008, you know? Yeah.
Zane [00:41:31] I love that song. I've been a huge fan of it from the first time I heard it, which was a long, long time ago.
John [00:41:36] Yeah, maybe... And now that I'm thinking about it, Zain, that one was actually transcribed by a student. And it's just note for note. It's not meant to maybe even be performed live. There's a Kerry Marsh arrangement of it that is much more singable. And so maybe that's partly why, like in other words, the group doing it live in the studio was doing heroic acrobatics to make it work. Whereas the students doing at home just on their own phones and stuff like that, they could just do one little spot and then come back and do another little spot and splice them together, you know? It's not super singable because, yeah, Imogen Heap, she just sang it into a one single microphone and then a vocoder kind of went and harmonized it for her, you know?
Zane [00:42:16] Right, right. Exactly.
Giacomo [00:42:18] What are some other pieces you've recorded over time that just stick out in your mind? You sent us another one called "The Grass Grows Greener", which I guess must have been one of the ones that you're particularly interested in or think sounds pretty good. And we think so as well.
John [00:42:32] Yeah, I just think that song is so funny. It's called a boogaloo.
Giacomo [00:42:36] A what?
John [00:42:37] A boogaloo. Yeah, that's actually the groove [sings rhythmically] "bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup bup". Yeah. Isn't that funny? And yeah, the groove is fun and just my dad always used to say that expression always, [in a gruff voice] "Well, son, the grass always grows greener on the other side of the fence, you know." And so here's this guy in Sweden who writes a whole song. It's fascinating to me that people in other countries can write songs in our language, too. Isn't that just crazy? [laughter from Zane].
John [00:43:05] And they can be better than what I can do, you know? So, yeah, that's that's kind of what drew me to that tune. And that recording stuck out as just fun and crazy, you know. Yeah. It's got the horn sounds even too, right? [speaking through a squeezed nose] They have to plug their nose and then block the mic as well in order to get that really thin...
Giacomo [00:43:22] Yes!
John [00:43:22] Yeah. So they kind of block the microphone with their hand, plus they plug their nose and then they... they get that...
Zane [00:43:30] Ah, interesting...
Giacomo [00:43:31] Interestingly, from your... There was something that jumped out at me in some of the YouTube recordings, especially from Vocalogy - speaking of mikes and sort of effects and things like that - you all were doing some very specific things with the movement of the mic. It was sort of in lockstep with what was happening rhythmically. Is that part of like what you might teach your students and sort of one on a part on mics? Or is that something you picked up from your sort of professional practice, like learning how to handle a mic as a singer, is kind of a big deal?
John [00:43:59] Yeah, we do that a lot. Yep. Some of it's intuitive, like a good musician. And students can be great musicians, you know. They'll figure out the sound they want from that. Some of it's a bad habit, like your hand might just kind of move to the groove. And then your sounds are going like, [simulating an oscillating sound ] "aah woo aah woo", you know, in and out kind of a thing. So some of it we have to coach students not to do like just because their foot's tapping 2 and 4 and the mic shouldn't be bobbing in and out on 2 and 4. [laughter from Zane].
John [00:44:29] Yeah, some of it's stuff they pick up watching videos, too, because, I mean, almost all of their heroes are singing on mics, you know, their musical heroes these days. And uhh... and then a lot of it we work on, like we teach the mic technique for sure. And they rehearse almost every class. We're lucky at Cuesta where it's just like plug and play. They literally just plug in their mikes and we flip a light switch. And then we have all the speakers already set up hardwired in. So generally almost every rehearsal they rehearse with microphones and they can really take time to figure out that placement and the technique of them. It's sort of an instrument, you know.
Zane [00:45:02] Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. I remember when I was there singing in Vocé and then I sang in the feeder group, too. The... Before I got into Vocé I sang in the other group, which are - the name escapes me. What was the... what was the secondary...
John [00:45:16] I think it's still what we call it. It's Encore.
Zane [00:45:18] Yeah. Encore!
John [00:45:19] Uh huh.
Zane [00:45:19] And I remember having to go every day when we came for rehearsal. We'd have to go and get all the sound equipment. We had to bring it all in and set it all up. It's nice that you guys have it all, all hooked up.
John [00:45:29] Oh, yeah. It's such a pain. And then plus it wears the gear out too. It gets all scratched and banged.
Zane [00:45:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So speaking of vocal jazz techniques, obviously mic technique is one of them, but another skill that you need to have when you're singing in a vocal jazz group is the skill of improv - improvisation. You know most folks - well, me... I don't know if most folks aren't natural born improvisers, but it's definitely something that takes practice in woodshedding. And you have to be taught, you know, how to improv. There's entire courses dedicated to it in the instrumental world. How do you approach teaching improv in the vocal jazz setting of Vocé?
John [00:46:11] Well, we also have an improv class, which is helpful too. You know what I mean? Because it is a lot to try to teach mic technique and the tuning and the harmony and the blend and all that. So...
Zane [00:46:19] Do a lot of singers sing? Do a lot of singers take the improv classes?
John [00:46:24] They do. Yup, yup. And we and we... but typically on the third rehearsal on the Fridays, we will take time and do improv practice and stuff like that. I think the number one best way is to just assign students to go home and learn jazz improv licks and scats and stuff like that. It's a... I liken... it's a language. Everybody agrees music's a language and improvisation is a language and jazz is a language and all. And the way you learn a language is to imitate. And I tell them you have to literally be like a one and a half year old in a crib holding on to the little bars, going [mimics a baby's voice] "ma ma" and then [mimics a baby's voice] "meelk" and just, you know, just - It starts with one little lick. And then finally you're like, "I want some milk." You learn how to put that together. But you're just imitating at first is all you're doing. I don't think little kids, teeny little babies even, know meaning necessarily. I'm no psychologist, but I think it starts with just that - just imitating and hearing a lot.
John [00:47:24] And that's... and so... They do several of those every semester. And once you put together a bunch of those, you just find yourself kind of hearing a little more clearly, because like I was saying before, there's in jazz, it's this limited number of chords and progressions and options. It's not infinite at all. You start to finally spend enough hours in there and you're like, "Oh, it's a pattern! And oh, he does that same thing that she did over there. Only it's a totally different song in a different key. Oh, and look at that! And now I realize it works in minor as well even." You start to really put all these things together, you know. So I think by doing those things, what we call lifting a solo is the most important thing. I think singing the lines like just singing your alto line and your tenor line and your soprano line, et cetera, is also the language. So just by singing our repertoire, you know - we talk about grass grows greener - by the time you went and sang all those rhythms and articulations and notes and you're hearing those notes in the harmony, just like a jazz band or jazz choir, then you're getting a sense of the harmony of how the scats work. And then we just play, you know, we just have people scat and they play telephone game and they imitate each other and they... they carry on conversations with each other and scat, you know, and all that kind of thing. Just games. They make it fun.
Zane [00:48:39] Let's hear some of those fine improvisational and microphone skills with Cuesta College's Vocé performing "The Grass Grows Greener" [00:48:48] [Music excerpt: a vocal ensemble is singing into mics while imitating the sound of horns before a bass line, shaker and baritone soloist are introduced]
Giacomo [00:51:50] So in thinking about jazz improvisation, you know, lots of the folks that you probably get at a two year community college are probably pretty young. They're coming straight from high school and many of them are probably learning a pretty traditional Western sense of classical music theory. I'm assuming they come in and they sort of - it's the first time that they're getting the opportunity to take a class like Jazz improvisation. What's that experience like for your students and how do you kind of pivot them away from maybe more traditional things that they have learned into more of a jazz or improvisational setting?
John [00:52:28] You know, I think Zane might back me up on this question, but the first thing they get hit with when they show up at Cuesta is classical music theory. And I think it's very hard for them. That's often considered sort of the weed out. It's like... it's like the organic chemistry of the music major, the classical music theory. This is like the third time I've alluded to this. But classical music is deep, man, and it is full of thousands of rules [laughter]. You know, for a thousand years. "Oh, my, yes, and you must resolve. Oh, yeah, and every single note has to resolve a perfectly specific way and you have to and that changes on the very next chord, you know." So, no, the classical music theory... First of all, it's a prereq. They have to take two semesters of that before they can do improv. And they're all kind of in the same boat. Like classical theory kind of mind boggles almost all of them. The keyboard players have the best shot at it because they're used to harmony and visualizing, you know, the grand staff for the bass clef on the treble clef at the same time. After they do that, then they can go into improv. And then, yeah, the ones that have been doing improv more in high school and stuff? Like they very likely had a teacher that asked them to lift a couple of jazz solos when they were in high school. So then it kind of switches in. The kids that have done more jazz get a shine a little bit more.
John [00:53:50] But I would say the classical... classical theory messes with all of their brains and brings their egos down a notch. And the jazz improv is a little bit more mixed, like some of them with more jazz experience from high school do okay. And... And then like singers, they do horrible in it, because - Zane, when you tell me to do a mixolydian scale as a singer, I'm just like, "Oh my God, which one is that now?" [laughter from Zane] You know what I mean? And I don't have any buttons to push to do it, you know. Yeah.
Zane [00:54:19] Are the jazz programs strong at the local high schools?
John [00:54:23] It is doing pretty good. Yeah. Yep. We have a couple of... we have an alum that teaches at Atascadero who's great and another guy at Morro Bay High School - he's great. So yeah. And SLO High School's got a huge jazz program right now. Yeah. So yeah the jazz program's doing really good. Yep.
Zane [00:54:40] So, you know, I personally... Obviously I'm an alum of Cuesta and I personally feel that the music program at Cuesta was instrumental, no pun intended, in my own music education, and that it really prepared me for the rest of my schooling, you know. I started as a musician, very young, as a piano player, but I never studied classical music in a traditional sense. I didn't study theory until I got to Cuesta and Cuesta really put it all into perspective for me and I feel like it prepared me for the rest of my schooling, which I went on to get a bachelor's in jazz studies and then a master's in choral conducting. What are your thoughts on Cuesta's role in furthering its students' music education?
John [00:55:28] I... still great. I still get emails every year from students thanking me and telling me where they're at. And, you know, and I think this is true with a lot of community colleges. I don't want to say that Cuesta is so outstanding or spectacular compared to other community colleges. But the huge advantage of the community college is the small class sizes, the teachers that are there because they want to teach, not because they want to do research. You know? And the... just the kind of - I wouldn't want to say convenience of it necessarily. But I guess it is convenient to be really low cost, low stress. You know, if you happen to have a little more money, you can move out and do an apartment. Zane, you might have had some friends that did do that, even though they could have lived at home. And I've had some kids that have been basically kicked out because... It's kind of natural, I think, at age 18 - you need to start spreading wings like it... just as an animal species, we are that way. We need to break away from our parents, of course, you know, to become fully realized.
John [00:56:27] But... and so, yeah, I feel like community college gives you all those options. You can live at home if that's... I mean, financially, it's the smart thing to do. But maybe it's not emotionally the smart thing to do and we can service all those people. It's super convenient that way, you know. And definitely the smaller class sizes and I think the informality may be a little bit is helpful. The instructors can still be respected, but we don't have to walk around with a doctor in front of our name or even just a last name. We're all just first names. We're all there for you, you know. And I think it's cool. There's a huge variety. It's not all... It's not all a bunch of Zane Fialas that came in, they're just completely driven and knowing everything. It's also kids with probably more talent than Zane, but more "screw off-ey", if that's a word. [laughter from Zane].
John [00:57:13] And it's kids with not even near the talent of Zane, but just really trying hard, you know what I mean? And everybody's together. So you get the sense of literally community because there's all these different people, all just trying to make it in their own way. At a conservatory where everybody auditions to get in and everybody's at a similar level, it gets tooth and neck, just gets ugly sometimes, you know?
Zane [00:57:35] Yeah.
John [00:57:36] Yeah.
Giacomo [00:57:38] John, I have to ask a favor, which is pretty, pretty important. Zane is known for his high degree of professionalism, high musicianship, and he's a pretty inscrutable guy. So I got to tell, I got to ask, what kind of embarrassing stories do you have to share from 18 year old Zane Fiala?
Zane [00:57:56] [laughter] Oh, in my defense, I was like 22 when I was with John.
John [00:57:59] Yeah, I did. I missed out. So I don't I don't have any. Honest to God. Yeah, I missed out on...
Giacomo [00:58:04] Uugggghh!
John [00:58:04] Zane was at least in his third year probably at Cuesta. Umm...
Zane [00:58:08] Yeah. We overlapped by just one single year.
John [00:58:10] Yeah. And he was, he was just a perfect guy. The thing I remember most about Zane was that he was mature and super talented and... There were several students like that, but he was really like a kind welcomer of me to this kind of outstanding program. You know? It wasn't the easiest transition because my predecessor was beloved. And that's always hard. And that's not unique to community colleges. That's the same with a church choir or with the Elks Club. [laughter] You know what I mean? If you're coming in and taking over the new presidency or whatever.That's just human nature. And I knew it was going to be hard coming in. And Zane made that a little bit easier for me. So, man! I hate to disappoint Giacomo.
Giacomo [00:58:49] Dammit! The inscrutable professionalism continues. [laughter from Zane]
John [00:58:51] We can... we can dig a little deeper, though. I'll help you out. [laughter from all]
Giacomo [00:58:55] Thank you. Thank you. Embarrassing photos will be welcome. We'll put them up on the website.
Zane [00:58:59] You have to ask George Stone about that. George Stone probably has some stories about me being younger and more uhh... less professional, let's say.
John [00:59:08] Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna dig. [laughter from all]
Zane [00:59:11] Yeah, and he toured Europe with me. And I can tell you that that was, well...
Giacomo [00:59:16] The drinking age is 16 in Europe. So that's... [laughter from all]
Zane [00:59:21] Oh, my gosh.
Giacomo [00:59:23] John, this has been super fun and getting to know a little bit more about you and your programs at Cuesta and your gosh, nearly two decades. It's amazing that you're only thirty one. [laughter from John] That's brilliant!
Zane [00:59:32] I know! God! He started Cuesta when he was eleven! [laughter from John]
Giacomo [00:59:36] But, uhh... we've seen some great programs that you've done online and now hopefully, you know, coming out of the pandemic and, you know, heading into summer and thinking about the fall. Looking forward, what's next for you? Do you just swing into the next semesters?
John [00:59:53] Well, like I said, I'm kind of getting... I'm a little bit hungry for the community choir game. I want to... I wanna find my way there, but I want to make sure I do it in a way that's not stepping on toes. So that's gonna be fun. Reconnecting with my colleagues in the high schools is going to be fun because I know they've been swamped and swimming in new techland like I have been all year long, you know, so I don't hear much from them. I check in with them once in a while, but... It'd be really cool when they can get all their students back together for reals. You know, it's amazing the fear around singing. It's just like... I'm going to go speak. This is a little bit off topic to finish up, but I'm going to swing over to this because I live in the tangential world. But next Monday, at about the same time, I'm going to be speaking at the board meeting for the local children's chorus. Their board doesn't want to let the kids sing together, even outside. Yeah, so I'm going to go there and speak about how Cal Poly, our sister, not our sister institution, but our counterpart here, as well as Cuesta, we've been singing since last August outside with zero COVID transmissions, you know. I mean, we know that because we test every week, you know. So I hope I can give them a little confidence. I hope in the fall the high schools can sing all together at the same time, not splitting their choirs, because I really look forward to kind of helping them grow their programs back, growing my program back. And... It's crazy. Maybe, yeah. I have about 10 more years left of my career, but I just kind of want more of the same, you know. I want to do some more touring, some more recording, some more inspiring and yeah, just get things back. I think that's what this year is all about. It's... it took me until just a few days ago to come up with a New Year's resolution even. I don't know about you guys, but New Year's came by and I'm like, "No. It's not a new year!" [laughter from Zane] It's just 2020 still, you know? And then there were a bunch of surprises even down the road after that that were depressing.
John [01:01:45] So it's just recently I was at SLO Brew outdoors, not wearing a mask and drinking beers and thought I'm ready for a resolution, you know. But it wasn't much of a resolution. It was just getting back on my feet physically, mentally and doing the same for my students, you know.
Zane [01:02:01] Awesome.
John [01:02:02] Yeah...
Zane [01:02:02] Where can our listeners find your ensembles online? Is there a YouTube channel that we can direct them to?
John [01:02:08] There is, yeah. They can go to YouTube and go to Cuesta Chamber Singers or Cuesta Vocé. And Vocé is spelled "V-O-C-E", like Italian "V-O-C-E". Yeah, that would be the best place.
Zane [01:02:22] We'll put those links in our show notes, of course, as we always do, and we'll definitely be playing some of these recordings that you sent to us on the show.
Giacomo [01:02:31] For sure! They're great stuff!
John [01:02:32] I'm honored you asked, Zane, and you really like was alluded to. You are inscrutable and you're a font of professionalism. And it's an honor that you would think of inviting me like... that was, that was... That really touched me. I appreciate you.
Zane [01:02:44] Well, you know, you've continued a great thing that I am a product of, and so that's you know, that's what I wanted to talk about. And I'm glad that you were willing to join us. And it's been a great conversation. It's great to hear your perspective on jazz and on, you know, not being so serious about the music theory side of things and just feeling it. I really like that statement. That's all really good. And I share your sentiment that, you know, what I too look forward to is just singing with people. And actually, I'll also say that you said it several times is how much you love harmony. You said it several times during this conversation. And that really resonated with me, too, because that's really - I mean, you know, choir is about community. It's about being together with people who are like minded and who want to have an outcome that's a beautiful musical experience. But in the end, really what we crave is to feel the harmony and to hear it and to sense it and to experience it. And that's what I'm really missing.
Zane [01:03:45] I mean, I haven't sung with another person except for some Christmas carols with Giacomo and my wife, over Christmas time. I haven't sung with anybody. I'm so, so deprived of it that I sat at my computer the other day singing barbershop tags all by myself, multitracking, just so that I could have that experience of singing harmony.
John [01:04:04] Yeah...
Zane [01:04:04] You know, we've been meeting with my choir online and quote unquote "rehearsing". But it's just not the same! And unless you get other people in the room with you.
John [01:04:15] Yeah...
Zane [01:04:15] So I, just like you - I really look forward to getting people in the same room and experiencing that harmony together.
John [01:04:23] Mmhmm...
Zane [01:04:23] So... so yeah. So anyway, thanks for being willing to be on the show and thanks for sharing your thoughts and, and everything. It has been a really great conversation.
John [01:04:33] It was my pleasure. I love your podcast. Thanks, guys!
Giacomo [01:04:36] Thank you, John!
John [01:04:38] Bye bye.
Zane [01:04:39] Let's end today's episode with a modern classic performed by Cuesta's Chamber Singers. Here is Eric Whitacre's "A Boy and a Girl" [01:04:49] [Music excerpt: a choir sings delicately, tenderly with every word sung together by all sections of the choir. The harmonies are tonal with occasional tart dissonance, describing a specific moment of young love between a boy and a girl.]
Outro [01:08:51] Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of the In Unison podcast. Be sure to check out episode extras and subscribe at inunison podcast dot com. You can follow us on all social media @inunisonpod. And leave us a review on Apple podcasts to let us know what you think!
Chorus Dolores [01:09:08] Fundraising efforts spearheaded by Chorus Dolores, whose favorite movie character is Tracy Flick in "Election."
Credits [01:09:20] In Unison is produced and recorded by Mission: Orange Studios. Our theme music is Mr. Puffy, written by Avi Bortnick, arranged by Paul Kim, and performed by the Danish vocal jazz ensemble Dynamic on their debut album, This Is Dynamic. Special thanks to Paul Kim for permission. Be sure to check them out at dynamicjazz.dk.