S2 E07: The Black Voices Matter Pledge
This week we chat with three of the authors of the Black Voices Matter Pledge: composers Drs. Zanaida S. Robles and Melissa Dunphy, as well as Christie McKinney, Director of Programs at Chorus America. We discuss the details of the pledge, the politics of composing, and breaking the cycle of apathy in combating social change in our choral communities.
Also, stick around after the conversation to hear more new music from LA-based choir Tonality and compositions from Drs. Robles & Dunphy.
Music excerpts
“Sing About It,” by Moira Smiley, performed by Tonality
“Poor Wayfaring Stranger,” traditional, arr. by Alexander L Blake, performed by Tonality
“I Don’t Recall” from The Gonzales Cantata, by Dr. Melissa S. Dunphy; Julie Kremm, soprano
“Seven Last Words of the Unarmed”; “V. Oscar Grant,” by Joel Thompson, performed by Tonality
“Can You See,” by Dr. Zanaida S. Robles, performed by Tonality
Theme Song: Mr. Puffy by Avi Bortnik, arr. by Paul Kim. Performed by Dynamic
Tonality - Poor Wayfairing Stranger by Alexander Lloyd Blake
Attack Me - from “The Gonzales Cantata” by Melissa Dunphy, live at The Rotunda
Episode references
Black Voices Matter Pledge, authored by:
Dr. Melissa Dunphy, composer
Dr. Zanaida Robles, composer, Harvard-Westlake School/Neighborhood Unitarian Universalist Church
Reginald Mobley, countertenor; Handel and Haydn Society
Joel Thompson, composer
Episode Transcript
Intro [00:00:07] Hello and welcome to In Unison, the podcast for choral conductors, composers and choristers, where we interview members of our choral community to talk about new music, new and upcoming performances, and discuss the interpersonal and social dynamics of choral organizations in the San Francisco Bay Area and beyond. We are your hosts. I am Zane Fiala, Artistic Director of the International Orange Chorale of San Francisco. And I'm Giacomo DiGrigoli, a tenor in IOCSF, the Golden Gate Men's Chorus and the San Francisco Symphony Chorus. And this is In Unison.
Zane [00:00:44] This week we chat with three of the authors of the Black Voices Matter Pledge, Zanaida Robles, Melissa Dunphy and Christie McKinney. We discuss the details of the Pledge, the politics of composing, and breaking the cycle of apathy in combating social change in our choral communities. We're going to hear one music excerpt in the middle of the episode, but you'll want to stick around at the end to hear more new music from L.A. based choir Tonality, including compositions from doctors Robles and Dunphy. But now, before we get into the meat of the conversation, let's listen to the title track of Tonality's recent CD, "Sing About It" by Moira Smiley.
[00:01:24] [Music excerpt: “Sing About It,” by Moira Smiley, performed by Tonality; music description:A soulful trio of men’s voices intone a baleful tune, followed by a rhythmic clap. Then a woman’s solo voice sings above the choir as it enters: “It’s so sad / We don’t understand each other yet / How can this be when we’ve been living together so long? / So close to each other’s beauty? / It’s so sad. It makes me feel so bad. / I’m not gonna stand for it anymore. / Gonna sing about it / Gonna sing it when it makes me cry – when I’m uncomfortable & don’t know why / When I am guilty of the laissez-faire – my ignorance of you laid bare / I’ll talk to you before I raise my hand, so/and you can call on me to make a stand / Am I responsible? Are you responsible? What are we responsible for?”]
Zane [00:02:13] So joining us today on In Unison, we have three guests and we're very excited to welcome all three of them to the show. First up, we have Dr. Zanaida Robles. And Zanaida is a composer, vocalist, conductor, clinician and adjudicator. She serves on the board of the National Association of Negro Musicians and is chair of the Board of Directors of Tonality, which is a nonprofit organization that promotes peace, unity and social justice through choral music performance in Los Angeles. Currently, Zanaida is a performing arts instructor at Harvard Westlake Upper School and Studio City, California, and Zanaida received her degrees, her Doctorate from the USC Thornton School of Music, her Master's from CSU Northridge, her Bachelor's from CSU Long Beach and is a graduate of the L.A. County High School for the Arts. Did I miss anything Zanaida?
Zanaida [00:04:31] That's enough. That's all. That's great. Thank you.
Zane [00:04:35] Welcome. Also joining us today, we have Dr. Melissa Dunphy, who is an award winning and acclaimed composer specializing in vocal, political, and theatrical music. Melissa has served as composer in residence for the Immaculata Symphony Orchestra, Volti Choral Arts Lab. Volti Choral Institute and the St. Louis Chamber Chorus. She is a Barrymore Award nominated composer and sound designer, working with several Philadelphia area theaters, and she has been director of music composition at the Eugene O'Neill Theater Center National Puppetry Conference—that's a mouthful—since 2014.
Melissa [00:05:09] Yeah, puppets!
Zane [00:05:13] Melissa has her Ph.D. in music composition from the University of Pennsylvania and a Bachelor's in theory and composition from Westchester University and is a lecturer in composition at Rutgers. Did I miss anything, Melissa?
Melissa [00:05:26] No. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.
Zane [00:05:28] Great. Welcome. Welcome. And our third and final guest, we have Christie McKinney joining us as well. Christie is the Director of Programs and Member Services for Chorus America. And prior to joining Chorus America, Christie taught middle school, choral and general music and directed musicals in Mechanicsburg, Pa. She has held invited positions on the ACDA state board and the Eastern Division Planning Committee and received the outstanding Young Conductor Award from the Pennsylvania chapter. Christie holds a Bachelor's in music education from Penn State and a Master's in arts management from American University in D.C.. Christie is a proud singer in, and board chair of, The Essence of Joy Alumni Singers, a choir that performs music of the African and African-American traditions. Christie did I miss anything?
Christie [00:06:21] No, that was beautifully done. Thank you, Zane. Happy to be here.
Zane [00:06:25] Great welcome. So glad to have all three of you joining us today.
Giacomo [00:06:29] And we're thrilled to have all three of you because all three of you are co authors of our topic of discussion today, which is the Black Voices Matter Pledge, which we'll chat about in just a brief moment right after my favorite part or one of my favorite parts of our episodes, which is the ice breakers, where everyone gets a little chance to get to know you. So I'm going to throw out a couple of things. Jump in when you feel comfortable, toss them back. If you feel like you need an extra second, I'm sure we can scrounge up and answer ourselves. But here's an ice breaker for each of you.
Giacomo [00:07:02] So aside from the miracle of the individual human voice, which obviously we're all familiar with, what instruments fascinate you and why?
Zanaida [00:07:12] Oh, oh, um, so first, like, I love collecting instruments. I always wanted to have an instrument collection since I was a little kid and I'm starting to collect them, but I'm so fascinated by the hammer dulcimer. I love the hammer dulcimer so much. I don't have one yet. And I don't know, I took a hammer dulcimer lesson once and I loved it and I was terrible at it. But I love that instrument so much. It just fascinates me. It was the first thing that pooped right in my mind right away. I love that instrument.
Zane [00:07:48] All right. Zanaida is on it. I love it. [laughs]
Melissa [00:07:51] So I am a violist and I feel like I would betray my kind if I didn't talk about how much I love the viola because I love the viola so much. Really it's one, I think it's the reason I'm a composer and I tell people this all the time. All the great composers that you know and love. Yes. All the dead white German dudes that you know and love? They're all violists, actually. Like people don't realize Mozart preferred playing viola in string quartets with Papa Haydn. Beethoven's first professional job was as lead violist to the Bonn Symphony Orchestra. Dvorak was a violist. Like all of these great orchestral composers were violists. And it's because we get such boring parts in orchestra and we are right in the middle of the beast, like we play in the belly of the beast, in the middle of the machine, watching all of the mechanics and it's boring. So we watch everything that's going on around us. And because of that, we get the best orchestration lessons in the world. Viola is a criminally underused instrument, and I love the tone of the Viola. I love everything about it. And it made me who I am. So everybody respect the viola. I know it's fun just to tell dumb jokes about us, but, all your faves: violists actually.
Giacomo [00:09:19] I have a newfound respect for the viola after our chat...
Zanaida [00:09:22] I know, well I almost want to change my answer.
Melissa [00:09:27] [laughs] I've achieved my goal.
Giacomo [00:09:29] Do you know Nico Muhly... We talked with him a couple of weeks ago, the Viola Concerto. I was listening to that. Ooh man. That is just fascinating, so even from that, it was just like, amazing.
Melissa [00:09:38] Oh, totally.
Zane [00:09:40] Christie, what about you?
Christie [00:09:42] I could say a couple of different things, but I think I think I'm going to go with the French horn today. And it's simply because I think it is extremely challenging. I had to learn how to play the French horn very briefly in my undergrad program to learn how to be a music teacher and it just even further elevated my respect for the people who play the French horn, but also mostly because I think that the French horn is frequently used in orchestration as like the Phoenix rising moment. And I, I just love that moment. Like, I can sing along to most French horn lines on TV shows that have them in their theme songs. It's a fairly annoying trait that I have that my friends make fun of me for. But yeah, the French horn definitely has a big piece of my musical heart.
Zane [00:10:34] Also, an underutilized instrument, kind of like the viola, and I often refer to the French horn part in a marching band as being the most boring part ever. All you do is just sit there and go, bah bah bah bah bah bah bah.
Zanaida [00:10:48] The offbeats, yeah.
Melissa [00:10:48] Wow. So they are the viola of the marching band!
Giacomo [00:10:49] That's so funny. I wouldn't know because I'm a violinist, so... [laughs]
Zane [00:10:52] Yes, absolutely. [laughs]
Giacomo [00:10:55] You know, as a violinist, I really can't relate.
All [00:10:58] [laughing].
Zane [00:10:58] Yeah, I played trumpet, so me either.
Giacomo [00:11:04] I, I feel like we have well broken the ice here and we're ready to do some ice fishing. So why don't we jump into the meat and potatoes of our conversation here, which is the Black Voices Matter Pledge. And right off the bat, I would love if one of you could just tell folks what is it exactly and how did it come about?
Zanaida [00:11:27] I don't necessarily feel like I have the best first answer, except to say that it's deep and comprehensive and really. It really is a Pledge to I mean, obviously, you can you can read the Pledge, it's long, but essentially it's just it's something that I can just say that personally makes me feel good whenever I read it, particularly as a person who identifies as Black. You know, it represents the coming together of several incredible minds, all focused on how to push our industry or our art form towards a more equitable way of being and at every level, which are really specific components to this Pledge that call for very specific actions. And I think that specificity is what really is what gives this Pledge its teeth?
Melissa [00:12:48] Mm hmm.
Zane [00:12:49] Yeah, and of course, we will put a link to the Pledge website in our show notes so the listeners can go there and check it out for themselves if they haven't already.
Melissa [00:12:59] Yeah, I feel like it's something that has been necessary for a long time in our industry. Many of us have been learning and talking and discussing and railing against the inequity that we see. And not all of it is completely overt, but it's demonstrated in what we see in our community, what we see at conferences, the segregation of races within the Choral community specifically like, you know, Black choirs versus not Black choirs. And there's this segregation or sort of a break there. And then because of that separation and there are so many issues which are just poorly dealt with, I think, within our community. And this is something that and I talk about this as someone who loves this community. I'm not sort of, you know, oh, the community is terrible and it's not, it's a community that has room for improvement, like all of American society in general. [laughs] But because we in the Choral community are very much a community, choral singing in itself is a community building activity, I think that it's incumbent upon us to address these issues and be leaders in this kind of this healing, really this adjustment, this this justice seeking that needs to happen in our culture generally. And yeah, I feel like I was on the periphery of this whole thing, like I was just this happy person to be in the room watching all of this happen with these great minds coming together to discuss these issues. But I'm so proud to have been involved in this.
Zane [00:15:03] That's a great segue. Maybe how did each of you come to be involved with this? Christie, why don't you start by giving us an idea how you came to be involved with the Pledge.
Christie [00:15:13] Sure, so I had been in conversation around these topics with some of the other co-authors for a couple of years prior to the Pledge starting. And I think my eager in participating and listening in spaces where this conversation was happening and participating and trying to move the work forward of the Pledge was why I was invited to participate. And I was really honored to be invited just to have some conversations that eventually led to a decision that a Pledge could be a pathway forward, because as Zanaida and Melissa both mentioned, it's really, really vital to the founding of the Pledge concept that it be based in action. And that's kind of the thread of the Pledge is an acknowledgment of what exists in the choral field right now and action about how to go about creating the change that we're hoping to see happen.
Giacomo [00:16:15] So I'd love to focus on that or just follow up on that for a second, because Zane and I both attended Chorus America's winter conference, which was great. There was a track that was focused on ADEI. And the thing that one of the takeaways that we had was that it's about breaking the cycle of apathy. Right. That like horrific things happened. We all wring our hands. It's so terrible. And then nothing happens and then something more horrible happens next. Right. So, like, until someone does something, there's action. It's just going to keep perpetuating. I would love to ask each of you, maybe whoever sort of might have an example in mind. We'd love to call attention to the ways that groups or individuals are turning the Pledge into action so far, including but not limited to music or arrangements or whatever. Like what's working, what doesn't, and maybe who are some good examples of like, yes, that's great. That's the kind of action that we think is really cool.
Zanaida [00:17:10] Good question.
Christie [00:17:13] I'm going to call out Ahmed Anzaldua, who runs a group called Border Crossing. They're doing some really phenomenal work about kind of reimagining what choral music's purpose can be and how some of the classics can be involved in moving forward the conversation. Actually, a part of our winter conference we featured a piece of theirs as kind of a collection of Minnesota featured organizations that was a reimagining Ahmed had done himself of a piece of the Messiah that was bilingual in the presentation. And it was beautiful and it was appropriate and joyfully done and with beautiful music, integrity and honored the original founding of the piece's idea and moving it forward in a direction that was inclusive of the community performing it. And I think that's a great example.
Melissa [00:18:19] I'm going to say, so we don't have Alex Lloyd Blake in the room with us, but one of the reasons that I signed on to the Pledge is because of Alex and the work that he's doing with Tonality. So, you know, Alex and I had run into each other at choral conferences and we sort of instantly clicked over, really over some of the injustices that we were seeing, some of the rooms that we were in, where we saw conversations about diversity happening in ways that that we knew would not solve the problem. And I'm a pretty opinionated person. I think Alex is, too. And so we would sort of find each other through the crowd and immediately be like, oh, my gosh, I have to talk. I have to deconstruct this. I have to talk about how this isn't fixing the problem and what can we do to fix the problem in the future. And he is someone who has certainly put his money where his mouth is in terms of what he's doing with his choir. When I saw what Tonality is doing and the way that they are just obviously right off the bat, an incredibly diverse choir with really multi talented people who can sing in a variety of different styles. So it's not just one style of music, it's not just one small cadre of composers who they perform. They can do such a wide, wide range of music and so many different perspectives in the choir so that they can do that music really well. I feel like they put different spins on old music that we haven't heard before because of the breadth of this experience. And it's really like it's just such a shining example of how diversity is strength and is what we need in our art form. So, yeah, I feel like when Alex called me up and said, do you want to be involved in this? I'm like, I will do anything I can to help you with this project because I believe so strongly in what you do. And yes, he's like the first name on the Pledge. But also everybody should probably check out what he's doing as an amazing example of what this kind of attitude can create.
Christie [00:20:45] Here here.
Zane [00:20:47] Yeah.
Zanaida [00:20:49] I can't speak highly enough of Alex. Same thing, Alex is this gravitational being that tends to pull you towards, you know, that which needs urgent attention. And I think of, you know, the work that he's done and continues to do is just phenomenal through Tonality, which is why I'm so invested personally and emotionally and in every way in that work, because he's just exemplifying it.
Zane [00:21:26] Yeah. I'm so impressed by Alex and his work and especially his arrangement of Poor Wayfaring Stranger on the Tonality CD.
[00:21:37] [Music excerpt: “Poor Wayfaring Stranger,” traditional, arr. by Alexander L Blake, performed by Tonality; music description: A solo treble voice balefully intones the traditional melody as a choir hums underneath: “I'm just a poor wayfaring stranger / Traveling through this world below / There is no sickness, no toil, nor danger / In that bright land to which I go / I'm going there to see my Father / And all my loved ones who've gone on / I'm just going over Jordan / I'm just going over home.”]
Giacomo [00:23:25] If you all will indulge me for a moment and bragging on the composers who are in the room. Zanaida, I have had "Can You See" on loop in my car every morning as I drive to aqua aerobics. I am literally like I have it memorized. If you need a tenor, you call now.
Zanaida [00:23:43] [laughs].
Giacomo [00:23:43] And and Melissa, I have to tell you that you are—I'm reaching back a little bit further here—but your "Gonzales Cantata" for me was a huge inspiration in a drag show I did, actually, a few years ago.
Melissa [00:23:53] No, really?!
Giacomo [00:23:54] Yes, we were on the eve of the 2016 election and we thought that, my God, this absurd human being, who is this? This can't be real. This can't be real.
Melissa [00:24:04] Yes.
Giacomo [00:24:04] And we took it to a place where we're like, well, how can we express the absurdity of this moment? And as a gay men's choir, you know, we went to our retreat, which was literally the weekend before that Tuesday. And I thought, oh, my God, the way that it looked in that first performance where everyone was dressed with the sashes and the tiaras and, yes, the absurdity of pageants in general, like, just that's just my personal opinion.
Melissa [00:24:27] Oh yeah, mine too, obviously. I designed that show. So, yeah.
Giacomo [00:24:29] Thank you. So both of those were just exceptional. And I think, you know, thank you for that. And I wanted to ask you both also following up on that. I think you've both also spoken about the importance of, you know, one of the things that that's sort of focused on in this Pledge is that this is obviously a very specific political request and a political Pledge. And you've both written music where you have put politics front and center in what you've got to say. How do you think about that in terms of your art? I mean, some people might say, well, you know, the political is not, you know, artistic or something. Or like either you're appreciating flowers on a tree or you're, you know, something else. Tell us about the art of writing. Yes. Both of those people are ridiculous, so... We've unleashed the beast, go.
Melissa [00:25:21] Everything is political. Choosing to write a piece of music about the majesty of the universe when fascism is on the rise all around the world. That's the political choice. You made a choice to not speak to what was happening in the world around you and instead focusing on something that you consider to be timeless and apolitical. Apoliticism is a political choice. You may think it isn't, but it totally is. And speaking as a woman, an immigrant, someone who grew up in a Chinese immigrant household in Australia, actually, I cannot not be a political composer. It's impossible because just putting a female name on a program still in the twenty first century, in the year twenty, twenty one, that's a political thing. Like when you see female composers on a program, people interpret that as a political choice, whether you like it or not. So I came to a decision early on in my career where I was like, first of all, I'm going to be seen as political no matter what I do. So why would I shy away from that? And secondly, every single thing that I do is political and every single thing that every composer does is political. I get so mad when people say that art and politics aren't connected or like politics dirties up art or something. I feel like that's actually really like it's an extension, frankly. It's an extension of white supremacy. It's like purity in race and purity in artistic... Like this is the default. It's timeless. Classical music is timeless by default and it's not political and it's just such bullshit. I'm so angry at that assertion at all levels. When you program, why is it that if you program a bunch of dead white German men on a on a on a concert, that's seen as apolitical, but if you were to program a bunch of women of color in a classical music concert, suddenly you are like a feminist diversity council culture, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, making this political decision. They're both exactly as political as each other. But white supremacy has convinced us that, and patriarchy has convinced us that one of these things is an apolitical default. And I'm sorry, but that is absolute bullshit, so... Yeah, that's my big rant. [laughs] I'm mad. I get so mad and, you know, it goes all the way down. Like kids come to me with these questions, like "I want to be a political composer. Can I not be a political composer?" Like, "I don't want to talk about politics" and I have to sit them down and say, I'm sorry, but you're but if you write something about a tree, that's political.
Giacomo [00:28:20] Too late kids. Too late kids, you exist.
Zanaida [00:28:22] Yeah. No, I'm glad she said it. I mean, it's like, you know, in this country, especially particularly in this country where I mean this where there's so much diversity, like by makeup, there's other countries that don't have what we have. They're all one type of people. And that's how it's supposed to be. And fine. That's not us. And so and we definitely have a system in place that favored one group, and continues to favor one group, for a long time. Therefore, if you come in here and you're not a part of that group, you're automatically different or you're automatically, you know, out of the norm or you're making a statement or something like that just because you exist. Like, that's been my whole experience, like my whole life. Like I'm different just because I'm here, just because I'm not like the dominant culture. So with that, honestly, I, I came to composing—being a real composer—I came to composing kind of late and it just kind of got pulled out of me because you know you can't you just can't... I couldn't not write what I was seeing. I couldn't, you know. And so and I don't I don't really think I, you know, consciously try, you know, don't I'm not thinking about, I'm actually not thinking about politics while I'm writing these pieces. For me, it's just, you know, I write the piece. I write what speaks to me. I write what, you know, my heart song, whatever that is. And then it gets seen a certain way. It gets taken a certain way. And I you know, you have to I think, you know, I have to let that go. You know, it's going to be, you know, loved or hated or used or not used and whatever, you know. But for me, I'm I'm I'm really not thinking about what do I want my piece to do, you know. I really I really I'm a pretty selfish composer from that perspective. And I write what I need to get out, you know, but then I think politically.
Melissa [00:30:33] You can't control what your piece does. That's like the truth of being a composer is you can't control really what your piece does when it's out there in the world. And even if you think you even like I've written pieces that I'm like, here's what I want that piece to do. And it goes out into the world and it affects people beyond what I possibly could have imagined. And, you know, and I get very personal letters from performers and audience members about how it's affected them and how it's helped them. And that wasn't my specific intention. And then I realized, though, that is what that art is about and that is what it's for. It's helping people. And it's not about my intention. It's about how it made the world better once it got out there.
Giacomo [00:31:18] Actually I'd like to return back to the Pledge for a second. And, Christie, this is a question for you, because I know that you, like me, are a singer. And I believe we all sing to varying degrees. We are singers. But this is something that I noticed in reading the Pledge, which was very interesting to kind of go through it. And I was like, yeah, yeah, where's my responsibility? What can I do? What do I do? And what's interesting is, while we understand the importance of beginning with policy, leaders, decision makers, what do you believe is the responsibility of singers individually to help affect change, because I think we're also people with agency that can affect decisions and policy making. So what's my responsibility? What's your responsibility as a singer?
Christie [00:32:03] Yeah, it's a great question. And we have actually talked about it a little bit as a group. And I think there will be an addition to the Pledge at some point that addresses that specifically. But there is a lot of agency as a singer. And I know I'm not alone in the sentiment of sitting in a rehearsal and wondering if the thing that's happening in front of me is offensive to other people in the room and and feeling that and then like, what's the responsibility in that moment? You know, I've taken I've taken the opportunity personally to go and talk to the conductor about it and try and open the open a conversation, because I think what one of the things that's so important about the Pledge is that, you know, we we want to name all the all the good work that's being done publicly. But the truth is that a lot of this work is very private. It's one on one conversations. It is a conversation between an artistic leader and a board chair or two singers in an organization and the nature and the thing that makes the action compelling and and have movement behind it is the relationship that ties the people who are having the conversation together. Hopefully as singers, we have a relationship with our fellow singers and the conductors in the room to go and say, I'd really like to talk about this. There's something that doesn't feel right to me. And I and I'm not sure what that is, but can we talk about it together? And just stating a discomfort is a starting place. And then what can be done about that? Are there other people who have that same feeling? Is that a conversation that, because the singer spoke up, then the conductor can open up with the organization and say, let's explore this a little bit. And that takes a real self-awareness and a humility from a leader's position. But it takes a lot of courage from the part of the singer, because in the traditional sense of choral music, the conductor is the powerful one in the singers have no agency and they are in part, they are the tools, the instruments of the conductor. But that's not really true, right? We know that the conductor stands up there and they wave their arms and unless the singers sing, nothing happens.
Giacomo [00:34:15] I think we learned that with frontline workers and covid, didn't we? Because it's like, who do you think is keeping the cold in the glue together? And if I can if I can further indulge myself with one request since I have three of the writers in the group, I think I think that one of the things that was also very powerful is that as a singer, I get to choose what groups I participate in and I don't. And I would love just as a personal request, that part of the Pledge for singers just be like, I'm looking for the better bureau badge, right? Like I am looking to see that this group has posted, first of all, that you have signed the Pledge. I want to see who your board is. I want to see who are the decision makers on your board. I want to see your rep. I want to see the history of your rep. What are you actually doing? Whatever I can look at to be like that's real and I can scrutinize that. And now I can make a choice. So a personal request for y'all as someone who has the chance to ask you all.
Christie [00:35:13] The thing that I feel very strongly about in the Pledge is that everybody, everybody who is reading it, who is taking the time to digest it, is not going to immediately be at whatever imaginary end point, quote unquote. There is supposed to be. Right. Like there is no end point to this work. The work is the work, and that's the point. And so I think that it's great for us to have to have accountability for organizations, that they are trying and that they are doing this work. And I also feel like there is a very important role, especially for people who are in spaces of power right now, to go into organizations that are not and say, "let's get to it," like, "what are we going to do," and look forward. And so that's my response is that everybody is in a different space in the journey. We're all on it. Can't help it. And you're either refusing, which is another space in the journey or you're on it.
Melissa [00:36:24] That's a decision that you're making. Like I don't want to, I don't want to call it... This is a movement that we all have to work on together as a community like this is not like, you know, oh, it's just up to us individuals to recycle our plastic and then we'll save the environment. That's not how this works. Like the big the big players have to do most of the work in order for this to happen, but there are steps that we can take as individuals, there are ways that we can step up and interrogate what the situations that we're in professionally or in Choral communities. I don't want to toot my own horn here, but as a composer, I've had several opportunities over the past year where I've been approached for commissions or commission projects where there's more than one composer involved in a commission project. And I've asked the question and it's scary to do it because there is that kind of like I don't know how much power I hold until you take the step of asking the question: "are there other composers involved in this project who are Black?" Like just straight up, "who else is involved in this project?" If it is a bunch of people, a bunch of non-Black people, I don't want to be involved in that project, like I'm going to cede my space to a Black composer because we've had this history of hundreds of years of ignoring Black composers and Black musicians. And I'm tired of it. And I have been lucky, I guess, in the kinds of people who approach me personally. I think that every time I've asked that question, I have received a positive response where they've said, actually, no, we've asked three other composers in this and two of them are Black. We're asking you. And then I felt like, yes, I am working with the right people, check. And if they had come back to me and said, no, how dare you ask that question, then why would I want to work with those people? Actually, I would just make myself miserable. [laughs]
Zane [00:38:31] So, Zanaida, how can we best help to promote this important message of the Black Voices Matter Pledge? How can we, what can we do to keep this work going all year long?
Zanaida [00:38:45] I mean, what we're doing... We're doing the work now. You know, I think I think that's the that's the thing about the Pledge that makes it what what's so what makes it powerful is the fact that you can't there isn't going to be evidence that of the work unless you're except through the conversations and the relationships that you build, that result in, you know, in the engagement with with, you know, hopefully more Black composers and artists and things like that. But it's having a conversation. I mean, really it really is about the relationships in the conversations. And as long as those are... Because the thing is, as soon as...there's been talk...I've been in a couple of conversations with people who are like, what can we do? Can we get it? We should have a Black Lives Matter stamp of approval or something or like, you know, you know, we've done the work and here it is. And see, you know, we proved that we check the boxes, we check the box. And if we ever get to that point, then that's when it dies. Because that's not what this is about. It's not about checking the box and getting and, you know, you're not, you're not earning a terminal degree in making Black voices matter. You are, you are engaging in a life in which you honor Black voices. You know what I mean? Like that. Like this is this is this is the way. [laughs] You know, you can't just stop, stop living, living, following the way. It just never stops. And as long as we are, we stay on the journey and keep having the conversations. Then that's how you spread the word. That's how the Pledge becomes more powerful, meaningful, and we start to see change.
Melissa [00:40:39] I love that as just an absurd thing. Like you have been cured of racism, here's your non-racist certificate.
Zanaida [00:40:46] Yeah.
Giacomo [00:40:47] [laughing].
Melissa [00:40:47] No more racism from you, congrats.
Zanaida [00:40:50] So now nobody has to look at you anymore because you did your job, you did the thing, yeah, yeah.
Melissa [00:40:55] Yes! We're like swimming in a racist ocean. [laughing]
Zanaida [00:40:58] Phew, that was hard. [laughs]
Melissa [00:41:02] Hooray, we got rid of it. It's good. No more racism.
All [00:41:09] [laughing].
Giacomo [00:41:09] I want to shift back just slightly to to talk about sort of in these conversations. We sort of talked about this, Christie, you talked about this a little bit earlier of that uncomfortable conversation, that sometimes you'll go and talk with a director, you'll say something. I was chatting with our dear friend, Vince Peterson, of Choral Chameleon and the Empire City Men's Chorus earlier today. And one of the things that we talked about is that this idea of collegiality in the choral community right? Here we all are, we don't know each other, we hadn't met before this moment. You all have, but we didn't have the opportunity to. But one of the things that sometimes happens is that entrenched powers that be will certainly be resistant to change. Right. Like that is the problem. That is kind of the issue is that like there's lots of people who've got power and they don't really want to give it to anyone else. My question to you or to you all really is have you met any resistance in crafting or distributing the Pledge? And what does that look like so we can recognize it?
Christie [00:42:06] The way that I have seen I have seen resistance pop up is people talk to me about the language in the Pledge. And there's these words, I don't like these words. I don't like this this CIS hetero patriarchy word that you all are using, like, what does that even mean? Well, you know, look it up, you can figure it out. You know, that's what Google is for. And that's a classic tenet of white supremacy, is tone policing, you know, “make this more digestible for me so that I don't feel so out of my depth when I'm reading it or I don't feel so uncomfortable when I'm reading it.” But we were deliberately specific in the Pledge. We wrote the words in the Pledge. We did not take away the power. We did not want it to be watered down. That's why there is no organization that owns this Pledge. This is a collective of authors because we felt like we were seeing other statements and Pledges that were watered down that were made to allow people to feel comfortable while reading it, which ultimately means that there's probably very little action that's going to come out of that because uncomfortable is where the action is. So that's one of the ways that I've seen the pushback.
Giacomo [00:43:38] And I have to say, as a person who did take the time to read it and, um, two things that I want to say about that is, one, oh, my God. Talk about leading a horse to water like you all have basically diverted the river through the stable and it's like literally all you have to do. It is so unbelievable I mean, the work is there, but it's literally like just dip your head down and splash some water in. Like, it's actually not that hard. Right. Like, you know, I love, like, the list of composers, you know, every bullshit answer you've ever been given. You guys are like, oh, you've never heard of Black composers. Here's a list of them in every variation you could possibly want. And like that's one thing I sort of wanted to say, which I think is amazing. And I appreciate the work that you've done. The second is maybe a tougher kind of question and it's more personal. Feel free to be like, "nah, I don't feel like answering that." But it's not lost on me that we're two CIS gendered white men talking to three women who are doing the work. What does it take from you? What energy…? Sort of what... It's a lot of work. How are you, I guess, is the very simple question. As you do this work, what is its impact to you personally?
Zanaida [00:44:54] Some days are better than others. I mean, you know, you know. It's a lot it's it's it's heavy to do this work because, you know. Because it's heavy to be a person that is seen as a part of a minoritized population. And I mean, like that's you know, it's it's more I personally feel the weight, more of living with, you know, the inequity and the lack of it all of all of that then, you know, because this what's in this Pledge for me, like is is kind of like the story of, you know, it's like my what's what's in the Pledge just is more like my dream, you know? Coming up with these thoughts and things, and it's like, you know, wouldn't it be great if these things happen. So that that part wasn't hard, you know, and and and talking to people about how important it is isn't hard. You know, it's it's it's going into rooms and knowing that this exists now and that there's so many resources and tools and knowing that if the that the conditions are still awkward and difficult and the the lack of inclusivity, and inequity in diversity persists. You know and when you've been feeling like a marginalized person forever, it can't change fast enough. There's always there's always a chance you're going to go into a room where this work is being done in and or the attempt is being made to do the work and you're going to get hurt. And that's that's like the hard thing is like you going into the room hoping that it's going to be OK and then it's not OK. And then, you know, having to kind of lick your wounds after that. I mean, that's that's been my experience.
Melissa [00:47:01] I am not Black.
Zanaida [00:47:04] What?! [laughs].
Melissa [00:47:04] [laughs] So I feel like this is the least I can do as Asian, Asian-American. We don't have the greatest track record on race issues in the Asian community a lot of the time anyway, with some huge exceptions. Grace Lee Boggs, for instance, is someone that I look up to as an Asian-American and someone whose radicalism in this fight is so exceptional that like, that's who I want to be when I grow up. But, you know, I feel like, oh, am I tired? Am I tired? OK, so now imagine what a Black person is feeling in this because they have dealt with this. It's like a generational thing in this country. So shut the fuck up and get up and keep working is kind of how I feel about it.
Christie [00:48:06] Yeah, I feel the same way. I am obviously also not Black, and I think that I feel like it's a responsibility that we all share and I, I feel like I have positions of power to do something with. And there's like a I think they use this phrase a lot in the military: it's like if it's not me, then who? That's how I feel about it. Like we all we all have to do it because we're all in it.
Zane [00:48:44] Yeah, absolutely.
Giacomo [00:48:44] Amen.
Zane [00:48:46] Well, as we're rolling here towards the end of our time together, you know, Giacomo and I wanted to make sure that we let the three of you know and all of our audience know that, you know, this podcast, the In Unison podcast, we intend to adhere to this Pledge over the course of time. We both feel very strongly about its importance. And so we intend to have a regular cadence of episodes that are dedicated to continuing to shine a light on it, to revisiting groups and individuals who have committed to it, and ask about their progress and how things are going and what they're doing to adhere to it. What their achievements have been, what their successes have been, what kind of roadblocks they're coming up against. And obviously, we're going to hope to have each of you back on as well to talk about your own individual paths down this trajectory as well. Giacomo, would you agree?
Giacomo [00:49:43] I would completely agree. And also because I'm a selfish little piggy, I have so many more questions for each of you that we couldn't possibly answer in one episode with all three of you. So we would love that. And yes, I 100% agree. And I can't thank you enough, not just for being a part of this conversation for the last hour, but for all of the work that you have done within your own organizations and with this Pledge as well. It is. It is extraordinary and it is appreciated. Thank you.
Zane [00:50:09] Yeah. And it's important.
Christie [00:50:09] Thank you for having us. And I feel like it's really important for us to call in our other co-authors who, you know, really helped make the foundation and and many, many hours of work into making the Pledge what it is. We're here to represent it but it was definitely a collective effort.
Melissa [00:50:33] Yeah. It's much bigger than any one of us.
Zane [00:50:36] Yes. We will have links in our show notes to the Pledge itself, to all three of our guests today, as well as all the other authors, the co-authors of the Pledge. And we'll just have as much information as we can in the show notes because we want to spread the word, no doubt.
Christie [00:50:53] Thank you.
Giacomo [00:50:54] And it was great to actually just get to know you all personally. You all are fabulous. Thank you so much.
Christie [00:51:01] We never have a chance to chat like this either, so...
Melissa [00:51:03] I know, you know, I'm kind of like, oh, it's these people in the room again. Let's talk! Even when we were doing the Pledge, it's like this constant pull of like I just want to talk to these people because they're so cool. [laughs] But we have to work.
Zane [00:51:23] Well, thanks again for joining us, all three of you. And it's been wonderful. And we'll look forward to talking to you again soon.
Melissa [00:51:32] Thank you.
Christie [00:51:32] Thank you, guys.
Zanaida [00:51:33] Have a great night.
Zane [00:51:34] You too.
Giacomo [00:51:35] Bye y'all.
Zane [00:51:37] We wanted to end today's episode with three more music excerpts. First, we have, "I Don't Recall, from the Gonzales Cantata by Dr. Melissa Dunphy, featuring soprano soloist Julie Kremm. This excerpt is from a YouTube promo mash up video that includes spoken testimony from Alberto Gonzales in addition to the musical performance.
[00:51:57] [Music excerpt: “I Don’t Recall” from The Gonzales Cantata, by Dr. Melissa S. Dunphy; Julie Kremm, soprano; music description: A soprano repeats the words “I don’t recall” in a baroque singing fashion, juxtaposed against the testimony to Congress of Alberto Gonzales, US Attorney General under George HW Bush.]
Zane [00:51:57] Next up is an excerpt of "Seven Last Words of the Unarmed, number five: Oscar Grant," written by Joel Thompson and performed by Tonality.
[00:54:41] [Music excerpt: “Seven Last Words of the Unarmed”; “V. Oscar Grant,” by Joel Thompson, performed by Tonality; music description: a TTBB choir speak-sings the words “You shot me”, echoing the final words of Oscar Grant, against sporadic handclaps that sound like the report of a gunshot. ]
Zane [00:54:41] And finally, here's an excerpt from the exceptionally poignant "Can You See," a setting of texts found on protest signs written by Dr. Zanaida Robles and performed by Tonality.
[00:56:55] [Music excerpt: “Can You See,” by Dr. Zanaida S. Robles, performed by Tonality; music description: an SATB choir sings the slogans of progressive social change, including “Women’s rights are human rights; kindness is everything; science is real.” The piece ends with a discordant iteration of the final verse of the Star-spangled banner.]
Zane [00:56:55] More information, including links to the composers' pages and additional episode references, can be found in our episode guide at inunisonpodcast.com/episodes.
Outro [00:57:07] Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the In Unison podcast. If you've got ideas for our podcast, please send us a message at ideas@inunisonpodcast.com. And who knows, maybe Chorus Dolores will ask us to talk about it during announcements. In Unison is sustained, nourished, and fostered by you, our loyal and loving listeners. And don't forget to subscribe to In Unison on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. You can find us on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook @inunisonpod. And hey, if you like what you heard, tell a friend or a section mate. Thanks again for tuning in. See you soon.
Chorus Dolores [00:57:46] Handbells tuned by chorused Dolores, who has sung the Messiah perfectly about a thousand times now.
Credits [00:57:55] In Unison is produced and recorded by Mission: Orange Studios. Our theme music is Mr. Puffy, written by Avi Bortnick, arranged by Paul Kim, and performed by the Danish vocal jazz ensemble Dynamic on their debut album, This Is Dynamic. Special thanks to Paul Kim for permission. Be sure to check them out at dynamicjazz.dk.