S2 E05: Spring has sprung! The joy of music making with Jake Heggie

Written By Giacomo DiGrigoli

This week we catch up with prolific opera, theater, orchestral, and choral composer (and dear friend of IOCSF), Jake Heggie, about his influences, his latest works, and his excitement about the coming of spring!

Episode transcript

Music Excerpts

Theme Song: Mr. Puffy by Avi Bortnik, arr. by Paul Kim. Performed by Dynamic

Episode Transcript

Intro [00:00:07] Hello and welcome to In Unison, the podcast for choral conductors, composers and choristers, where we interview members of our choral community to talk about new music, new and upcoming performances, and discuss the interpersonal and social dynamics of choral organizations in the San Francisco Bay Area and beyond. We are your hosts. I am Zane Fiala, Artistic Director of the International Orange Chorale of San Francisco. And I'm Giacomo DiGrigoli, a tenor in IOCSF, the Golden Gate Men's Chorus and the San Francisco Symphony Chorus. And this is In Unison. 


Zane [00:00:44] This week we catch up with prolific opera, theater, orchestral, and choral composer (and dear friend of IOCSF), Jake Heggie about his influences, his latest works and his excitement about the coming of spring. 


Zane [00:00:59] And joining us today, we have American composer Jake Heggie. And Jake is a very well established composer and pianist, best known for his operas and art songs, as well as for his collaborations with internationally renowned performers and writers such as Kiri Te Kanawa, Renée Fleming, Joyce DiDonato, Susan Graham, Frederica von Stade and many, many others. Jake studied at the American College in Paris and concluded his studies at UCLA receiving both his Bachelor's and Master's degrees there. Jake has written nine full length operas and several one acts, nearly 300 art songs, concerti, chamber music, choral and orchestral works. A Guggenheim fellow, a frequent guest artist and master teacher all over the country, and the recipient of many prestigious awards. Jake currently lives in San Francisco with his husband, Bay Area actor Curt Branom. Jake, did I miss anything? 


Jake [00:02:02] No, that sounds about right. I recognize that person. 


Zane [00:02:05] It sounds familiar. That's important. 


Jake [00:02:08] Yeah.   


Zane [00:02:11] Giacomo, take it away. 


Giacomo [00:02:11] Jake, we usually start these conversations with an icebreaker, and I had one for you. Both of us are, I gather, fans of Barbra Streisand, both well, both literally and euphemistically, I gather. If she had sung one of your songs that you wrote when you were 11, what would it have been? 


Jake [00:02:33] Well, first of all, if she had sung one of my songs when I was 11, she could have really had a career...just sayin'. 


[00:02:41] [Music excerpt: "People," by Barbra Streisand, from the album People. Music description: A solo flute begins over a slow, sweeping orchestral introduction. Barbra quietly sings the text “People who need people are the luckiest people in the world. Where children needing other children and yet letting our grownup pride hide all the need inside, acting more like children than children.]


Jake [00:02:47] She was a huge influence on me as a kid because her voice was so extraordinary and there was always a sense of humor, a sense of fun. It was always connected to something very deep and emotional or joyful. There was the full range. She was a wonderful actor and her movies were very popular. But I actually started writing songs *for* her when I was about maybe 13 or 14. But I wrote a song called "When I Look At You," that was all of her vocalisms in there, the big leaps, the octave leaps and the soaring lines. And it's actually not a bad song for someone that young, but we'll just leave it in the trunk and, you know, imagine what could have happened. 


Giacomo [00:03:37] She would have been somebody. She could have been a contender. 


Jake [00:03:39] Exactly. 


All [00:03:41] [laughter]. 


Jake [00:03:41] Oh, Barbra. 


Giacomo [00:03:44] And one other thought, just as an ice breaker as well, Zane and I were thinking about what it must be like to be a composer and hear your music come back to you or the impact of what that feels like. You're sitting in the audience for the premiere of one of your operas. What's going through your mind? 


Jake [00:04:04] Well, first and foremost, I'm sending positive energy to the performers and to the stage and to the pit and everyone backstage because they've worked so hard and they've put so much of themselves into it. They have to believe it and believe in it so much to deliver a performance. And so in that moment, I'm just wishing everything good for them and hoping they deliver the performances that they'll be proud of and happy with. And then I'm also sitting back and listening to where, especially with a new opera—at a premiere, because that's its first day, that's its birthday, because that's the day the final character shows up, which is the audience, you know, and you don't really know what an opera or a staged piece of that size and scope is until it's fully dressed on the stage with the orchestra, with the audience, and then you start to get a sense of what it really is. And so then I start to think "this is going on a little long. This seems to be not working. This seems to..." I try to look at it that way, too, because then I have work ahead of me as well. But in the moment, it's celebration and gratitude. One hundred percent. 


Zane [00:05:12] Is it common to have changes to an opera after its premiere? 


Jake [00:05:17] Oh, God, yes. 


Zane [00:05:19] Opera is so foreign to me. 


Jake [00:05:19] I mean, when there's that many notes and that length of work, you know, it's a stage piece. And like I said, the last character to show up is the audience. And they show up the day of the premiere. And that's when you really start to learn about it, because, you know, when you're creative people, you get very close to your work and it's easy to lose perspective. And nothing gives you perspective like an audience, or several audiences over a period of time. And usually I find with my work, it's by the third production that it finally is in its final form. The first one is when I'm learning and we've done a lot of work on the front end to try to get it in the best shape possible. But then you learn about it at the premiere, then you do work on it at the second production. You hear the work that you've done to know if it's the right work or if there's more that needs to be done or you've overcorrected things. And then the third production is when it usually is settled. I've been lucky enough to have multiple productions of my operas, but that's been my pattern. 


Jake [00:06:25] But, yeah, I think it's incumbent upon a theater composer to be willing to change and rework things after a premiere and after you've started learning things about the piece because there's so many things going on. You're telling a story, you're developing characters, their interactions, their personal lives, the things that define them, the things that shape them with music and action and words. It's a lot. 


Zane [00:06:52] Yeah. 


Giacomo [00:06:52] Who do you trust for feedback? 


Jake [00:06:56] That's a very good question, because I tell young composers all the time that they need to surround themselves with friendly ears and who love them, love their work, want it to succeed, but are going to be honest with them. They're going to be kind. We all appreciate kindness, but they're going to tell them the truth, you know, and I need people to tell me that if I ask them afterwards, please be listening and let me know what you think, because I really need to know and try to do that beforehand too, like at workshops along the way, whether something's going on too long, whether it's not enough and you know, if they're telling me, if attention keeps going to one particular place, that's a good sign that that place needs attention. Although it might not be exactly that place. It might be something that happens before that leads to a moment where that's confusing or that's not working. And then you also have to decide, is that because the staging doesn't work or the sets or the costumes, or was a role miscast? You know, there's all of that because with an opera as well, you know, the audience is taking in so much. They're taking all this visual information as well as all the music and the characters and everything, that if things don't fit or make sense visually, they're not going to hear the score because they'll be focused on all the other stuff. Just why, in choral writing it is you know, you guys are standing there singing and still it's all about that sound and, you know, the vibration and the waves and the shape of it, which is a very different experience than a stage or theater piece where there's a lot that could distract you. And I've had pieces that I think have suffered because of poor productions out of the gate and that I've had others that have done better than I could have imagined because the production was amazing, you know, so people could really experience the piece as I wanted them to hear it. 


Zane [00:08:48] So as the composer of the opera, you don't have quite as much to do with the instructions for the staging and the choices that are made in that regard?


Jake [00:08:55] No, I mean, I can weigh in, but those those decisions belong to directors and designers and people who are gifted in those areas, and usually I'll request that it be people who I can collaborate with and who will listen to me when I really object to something that I think is interfering with storytelling or development or something. But you never know. And I believe those creative people have to have the chance to explore as well, because I want to work with people where I learn something from them, too. That's the same with soloists, with singers, with instrumentalists, with choirs. You know, if I haven't micromanaged it to within an inch of its life, which I try not to do, I try to leave room for a conductor and a team, a creative team, to bring their perspective to it. Then I can learn something from it. And that's one of the most exciting parts I think of the whole thing is that I, I do my best work. I mean, I do the best I can and put something on paper, send it out into the world, and then hope that it's flexible enough that it can take many different perspectives and interpretations. Because if a piece can only be done one way, it's not a very good piece. You know, it needs to have that flexibility because there's going to be so many different ideas coming to it. Even something as great as the Bach B minor mass, which was a formative piece for me. 


[00:10:28] [Music excerpt: Mass in B Minor, MWV 232: Kyrie - Kyrie eleison (Chorus), performed by Bach Collegium Japan. Music description: An organ and choir enters forte, the sound reverberating in an echo as if in a cathedral; played and sung matter-of-factly. The text is the traditional kyrie text: “Kyrie eléison | Christe eléison | Kyrie eléison” (Lord have mercy; Christ have mercy; Lord have mercy)] 


Jake [00:10:28] I must have listened to, you know, 20, 30 different recordings of that when I first discovered it, and every single one of them is so different, and yet it's the same notes, it's the same thing. You know, the same texts, everything. But it is completely different interpretations. And that piece is open to that. And people are eager to make their mark on that. So those are the kind of pieces I try to write. I get a little fed up with composers who over micromanage every single thing, so that it said 11/16, and then it's in 3/8, and then there's this marking and then that marking and like... Stop. You know?


Zane [00:11:10] I do know. 


All [00:11:11] [laughter]. 


Jake [00:11:11] I'm sure you do. 


Zane [00:11:11] You know, well, with IOCSF being so focused on new music we get—and promoting under underrepresented composers—we often have scores put in front of us that are by, you know, less experienced composers. And some of them want to micromanage. And we end up with scores with, you know, the dynamic markings and hairpins, you know, like four different sets of hairpins and in one measure, trying to convey some idea that they had. And even then, it's not the clearest conveyance of that idea. 


Jake [00:11:44] How about crescendo, decrescendo, accel... 


Zane [00:11:47] Yeah. 


Jake [00:11:47] Faster, slower. Move it here. Slow down. Linger. [laughs]


Zane [00:11:53] Yeah, that's true. [laughs] So, you know, this is a choral music podcast. So, while a lot of your compositions are operas and art songs and there aren't quite as many standalone choral works, I thought we could pivot into talking about choral works. And I wanted to start off by asking you, so when you... Because there aren't as many standalone choral works, when you do decide to write a choral work, what are your main motivations and inspirations? What drives the decision to write something for choir, commissions aside? 


Jake [00:12:26] Mm hmm. Storytelling. You know, I'm a theater person, so everything springs from transformative journeys, emotional storytelling, something like that. Through the voice. The voice has always figured prominently and central to my creative life since I was really little. Even though I started with piano lessons, it was singing that was around me all the time. You know, we talked about the influence of Barbra Streisand. She's a storyteller, you know, and those were the voices that I was always most interested in, were solo voices that told stories. 


[00:13:10] [Music excerpt: "The Radio Hour: Part I: A Really Bad Day," by Jake Heggie, libretto by Gene Scheer, performed by John Alexander Singers and members of Pacific Symphony. Music description: A playful flute and string orchestra play a quizzical melody, as a choir sings “Hmm! Mmm! Oooh! No! Some chocolate ice cream, perhaps? No! No! No! What kind of jerk returns a hand-written letter unopened? ” telling the story of a child choosing a flavor of ice cream, and other disappointments]


Jake [00:13:17] And that just naturally went then into musical theater and into opera.But along the way, I also fell in love with choral singing. I participated in choirs growing up in Ohio in high school. I played for the jazz choir and, you know, and then in college I was playing for choirs, especially at UCLA. There was a man named William Hatcher who conducted the a cappella choir, and they were the madrigal singers. And I played for all those choirs. And that's when I first wrote those pieces, you know, "Faith Disquiet." I wrote those when I was a grad student in the 80s for the UCLA a cappella choir. And they took them on tour; it was a miracle. And I also participated in the choirs and there was always a big choral union at the very end around the holidays, the end of the year, where all the different choirs sang together at Royce Hall. It was just an amazing experience. 


Jake [00:14:13] So I think that sense of community and storytelling through multiple voices is always what draws me to choral writing. And certainly in my operas it's part of storytelling and it's, you know, that beautiful. I mean, there's just nothing like the sounds you can get from a choir. There's nothing that can replicate it in the orchestra or electronically... Anything. It's just a magical special sound unto itself. So I think it just inspires me. And it's you know, I wish I did get more commissions for it because I do tend to work on commission and I do really big pieces that take years of my life. So it isn't often that I just get to sit on the side, write something just for fun, because I'm very busy with these professional engagements. But it's something that figures very, I think, it's very central to who I am as a composer, and my development. Like Peter Grimes, was one of the first operas that really hit me over the head and the choruses in Peter Grimes, of course, are unbelievable. 


[00:15:22] [Music excerpt: Peter Grimes, Op.33/Act3: "Who Holds Himself Apart," by Benjamin Britten; performed by Chorus of the Royal Opera HOuse, Covent Garden. Music description: A bombastic orchestra and choir, representing the townsfolk, sing accusatory text accusing the main character of murder. The text: “Who holds himself apart Lets his pride rise. Him who despises us We’ll destroy. And cruelty becomes His enterprise. Him who despises us We’ll destroy. Our curse shall fall upon his evil day. We shall Tame his arrogance. We’ll make the murderer pay for his crime. Peter Grimes! Grimes!”] 


Jake [00:15:22] Those are key moments to me in any of the operas that I now have figured prominently in the Oscars that I've written. 


[00:15:29] [Music excerpt continues]. 


Giacomo [00:15:29] So you're a singer, a performer, an instrumentalist yourself? 


Jake [00:15:41] I would not call myself a singer. I don't think anyone would call me a singer. You can call me a bad singer. 


Giacomo [00:15:49] Well, maybe, but your compositions actually do, I mean, it's clear to me when I look at your compositions, especially for choral works, that, like you have sung these lines, like the voice leading is just beautiful. And you can see that you've thought about what that feels like. My question or the thing that I wanted to follow up and wondering is like you've written opera, you've written choral pieces. Is there an instrument you—and most of these things I think you have touched in some way or you've experienced in some way or participated in some way—is there anything you want to write for that like it's a crazy instrument or something, or something that you haven't touched yet? You were like, oh, that would be fun. Like the theremin or some technical thing, or, I don't know where your fantasy and imagination might run. 


Jake [00:16:28] I've written for a lot of instruments. I'm really eager. You know, I've written a lot for clarinet. I've written a lot for cello. Those are two of my favorite instruments. I've written for string quartet. I love that ensemble and strings figure centrally to every orchestral piece that I write or the orchestra in my operas. The strings are central to everything. But in terms of like odd instruments that I like to write for or incorporate, I don't... No, I haven't thought of one... It's interesting, you know, and I've written for different types of countertenors, so I've written for those voices and I haven't written anything... Actually, I take that back. Just this past year, I for the first time wrote for coloratura soprano, which is a crazy, crazy voice, you know, and I've never really written for that. So I just wrote some songs for a coloratura soprano. And that voice just baffles me. I think it's just one that I have to get used to writing for. But in terms of like a weird instrument, now, I'd love to incorporate a theremin into an opera score that would be kind of cool if it was the right story. And it's like I've also thought about, I'd love to write an opera at some point where a sax quartet or quintet is central to it, you know, along with some strings and percussion. But, you know, those are dreams, but in terms of weird instruments like a [inaudible] or a Serpent or... 


Giacomo [00:17:57] I mean, I guess it depends on the story you want to tell, right, like you're thinking of the instruments that would set to the story. 


Jake [00:18:01] Yeah, it has to enhance the storytelling to me. The whole process, you guys, to me, you know, I use a metaphor: I liken the whole thing to a well. A well that is a human experience or emotion or story, something really rich and deep, profound, that, you know, an artist is drawn into to explore. And, you know, a painter is going to come up with something, a sculptor is going to have, a choreographer will come up with something. And it's my job as a composer if I'm drawn into that, well, to really explore it. If I'm working with a writer, the writer goes in there and digs around and then comes out with something. I take that and I go in and that might be the text might change. It might be rewritten. The whole thing might be reconceived based on my experience in there. Then we come up with a score and we present that to whoever is performing it. And then if they're really good performers, they don't just look at what's on the page. They go into that well to see what that experience is like, the fullness of it and what they will bring to it. And like I said, that's kind of what I live for, to see what perspective they will bring. Gene Scheer, who's my most frequent, you know, opera writing partner, he and I, we have to visualize it, to write it. So we'll have this picture of what it's going to look like as we're putting a score together. And generally, it looks nothing like that when we get onto the stage because a director and designer are taking their cue from what we've written and they're going into the well and coming up with a new vision for what that piece is. 


Jake [00:19:34] So but like I said, that's also part of the fun. That's kind of what I live for, is learning from other people about the work and constantly challenging myself to do something different, something where I'm not repeating myself because I don't think any artist just wants to repeat. We want to explore. We want to grow and challenge ourselves, even if sometimes that means the work doesn't succeed. At least you've learned something from it. You know, in any artistic career, there's going to be a lot of road kill that you just like it's off to the side. You're like, OK, don't look over there. Look over here. Look at this. Well, that didn't work. Exactly. 


Zane [00:20:11] I wanted to ask about, you mentioned chorus movements and choruses within operas and that some of the most moving operas for you are ones where the chorus has a really central role. Can you talk a little bit more about the role of the chorus and chorus movements or parts of an opera and maybe what the commonalities and differences are between that and stand alone choral works. 


Jake [00:20:40] Mm hmm. Well, you know, in an opera, a chorus is in character. They are part of the story and the storytelling in the action. So they are, you know, either, you know, peasants or slaves or, you know, Romans or, you know, or villagers or, you know, the police force or, you know, they're they have a role. They have their characters. And so that's where their music springs from, what that population is missing or what they want and that's key to theater is what do these characters want? Why are they on the stage? What happened just before they went on the stage and what is keeping them there? 


[00:21:30] [Music excerpt: "It's a Wonderful Life: George and Mary's Wedding Day," by Jake Heggie, libretto by Gene Scheer, performed by Houston Grand Opera. Music description: A musical theater feeling, almost reminiscent of Bernstein’s West Side Story, with choristers singing and clapping words of congratulations at a wedding] 


Jake [00:21:30] And so that's where the music springs from, it's part of the storytelling, it's part of the action. And I think, you know, successful choral writing in opera doesn't always translate to successful a cappella choral writing, you know, because the stage, that dramatic lyric stage is very different from stand alone a cappella work, like Randall Thompson's "Alleluia," is, you know, glorious and beautiful. But it really won't work on an opera stage. You know, it's just a very, very different kind of writing. 


Jake [00:22:03] And, you know, and what is the delineation is what the composer's intention was, you know? Did the composer intend for this to be a serene moment or a big moment with an a cappella choir on their own? That's a very different task than writing for characters in an opera or a stage work. 


Zane [00:22:23] Yeah. 


Jake [00:22:25] And that's where it's been tricky for me because I am primarily a theater composer, which is why telling a story of some kind with the choir is very important to me and it's what helps me write effectively. But also if there's a great text or a great poem that I'm setting, it can be an internal transformative journey that I think can be illuminated by many voices like "Stop this day and night with me," the Walt Whitman poem, is one of those. 


[00:23:00] [Music excerpt: "Stop this day and night with me," by Jake Heggie, performed by the University of Memphis Chamber Choir. Music description: An SATB choir sings the Walt Whitman poem text in a lilting, quasi out of meter rhythm:  “Stop this day and night with me and you shall possess the origin of all poems,You shall possess the good of the earth and sun.... there are millions of suns left, You shall no longer take things at second or third hand.... nor look through the eyes of the dead.... nor feed on the spectres in books,You shall not look through my eyes either, nor take things from me, You shall listen to all sides and filter them from yourself.”]


Jake [00:23:00] It was written for the King's Singers on a commission. 


[00:23:06] [Music excerpt continues]. 


Jake [00:23:06] At first I didn't know what I wanted to write. I had just recently finished Moby Dick and so I thought I would write something by an Illuminist poet from that period. And I went to a scholar, a friend who knows all of that literature and poetry, and said it's for the King's Singers, it's got this many voices, this is the kind of feel that I'm looking for. And he sent me this Whitman text and it was exactly what I needed. And it was just really inspiring and it really is about an illuminating moment within yourself. 


[00:23:44] [Music excerpt continues]. 


Zane [00:24:09] Yeah, you've mentioned to me previously about some feelings you have about setting Whitman's poetry. Would you like to expand on that? 


Jake [00:24:18] Yeah, I had never set Whittman previously. I feel a little bit about setting Whittman like I do about setting Shakespeare. You know, it doesn't... Does it need music? It's so musical all on its own. And so I've often been at a loss for setting Whitman or Shakespeare. Have I ever set Shakespeare? I don't think I ever have because there is so much music innate in the language that sometimes when you set it to music, it actually doesn't add anything. It limits it versus the music that's built into the language. That's why, you know, looking for the right text at the right moment in your creative life, it's kind of everything, you know, finding the thing that invites music, you know, words and experiences that invite music in rather than stand on their own, where the music is just like an extra layer that doesn't add anything. Yeah, I just had the joy of working with Margaret Atwood, the great Canadian writer, and she wrote some poems that I set for a baritone named Josh Hopkins called "Songs for Murdered Sisters." 


[00:25:36] [Music excerpt: Songs for Murdered Sisters: No. 7, Rage, by Jake Heggie, text by Margaret Atwood, sung by Joshua Hopkins. Music description: A striking, haunting strum of piano strings underlays an operatic baritone singing “I was too late, too late to save you; I feel the latent pain in my own fingers; in my own hands. I feel the rage! Of my hand to kill the man who killed you...”]


Jake [00:25:36] She's a novelist and so used to telling the story all on her own, you know, with a novel, but she's also a brilliant poet. She wrote these really spare, beautiful poems with language that can be sung. And also that leaves a lot of room for music to give us information that words alone cannot. Those are the kind of texts that you have to find. 


[00:26:43] [Music excerpt continues]. 


Giacomo [00:26:43] We had an interesting conversation a couple of weeks ago with Joel Chapman of Volti, and he wrote a piece called Interdependence, which was very much written for this moment, and he felt compelled to compliment his piece with a visual component because of where we are right now. And he wanted it to be like that. And not not only because I think for the sighted, but because he also wanted to create these access points for a larger audience as a non hearing audience as well. What are your thoughts about in terms of the same way that like adding music to Margaret Atwood's poetry sort of augmented it. What are your thoughts about the relationship between choral music specifically and both this moment right now in terms of like trying to make the most of these like Zoom and streaming things and then in general, this new movement that seems to be happening where you'll go to a live performance and you'll see visuals or things that are   thrown up on the wall. Do you feel like those are augmentations to the music? I mean, when you see them, if they're not something that you as the composer intended, do you feel like, what is happening? 


Jake [00:27:56] Well, you know, the thing is, as a composer, all you could do is write it and put it out there, you know? What we do creatively, what you guys do, what a choir does is you work really hard to put something out there so that you can give it away? Right? And ultimately, we have to give it away. And it's the same thing with one of my scores. I give it away and then someone has a vision or an idea and they present it that way. And it doesn't matter if I like it or not. It was meaningful to that creative person in that moment and it maybe touches someone. You know, I've been to the productions of my operas, oof, and one of them was The Waiting for Guffman production of Dead Man Walking. 


Giacomo [00:28:37] [laughs] Were there cinders coming out of the...? It would burn the place down... 


Jake [00:28:42] No, it was so bad. And I was in the audience like dying, sinking into my seat. And then this audience went bonkers and stood and cheered and screamed. And there were people crying. And I thought, well, what the heck do I know? You know, you just never know how something is going to reach people or touch them. And so that's why we let it go. We give it away. We put it out there. And you have to trust and, you know, there's going to be things that work and things that don't work. That's how I feel about this time. We have to try all these things. People want to stay connected. People use the tools that they have accessible to be creative and to reach people and to express themselves, to use their voice. Everyone has a voice, you know, we want to use it in whatever way we can that will be helpful to others and connect us and do what the performing arts do, which is gather us, open up a dialog, open up a bridge or a door to a different perspective. So I think it's all valid. Do I like it all? No. Am I kind of over the online stuff? Yes. I think we all are. But it's where we are right now. So we just have to keep exploring and learning and we will be back in the room together before you know it and having other experiences and other, you know, conversations. But, you know, first of all. Yes, there will be things that I disagree with when I see them, but what an honor that my work inspired these people to come up with an idea that is extraordinary. I always go back to gratitude that I was lucky enough to be the person to put that on the page and that it inspired someone else. It's just kind of miraculous. And so really, I just have nothing but gratitude about the whole thing. 


Zane [00:30:35] How do you, this is maybe a kind of a question out of left field, but that's OK. How do you avoid predictability within your compositions? 


Jake [00:30:47] You know, I just try to let myself be surprised, but I do want to avoid predictability. But what I don't want to avoid is inevitability, because what we're looking for, at least what I'm looking for creatively, is something that feels inevitable, like it had to go that way. And yet it was surprising so that, you know, like one of the big compliments I ever had was I spent five years writing the opera Moby Dick. 


[00:31:20] [Music excerpt: Moby-Dick, by Jake Heggie, libretto by Gene Scheer, a medley preview performed by members of the San Francisco Opera. Music description: An opera company sings an assortment of operatic flourishes from the story of Moby Dick]. 


Jake [00:31:20] It was really, really, really challenging. And at the premiere, which went amazingly well against all odds and was hugely successful, this woman came up to me and she says, "well, I don't know why no one's thought of doing Moby Dick as an opera before. I mean, it's so obvious how you do it." You know? And at first I kind of wanted to poke her in the eye, but then I thought, you know, that's actually a huge compliment. It means it felt inevitable. It had to be that way. 


[00:31:48] [Music excerpt continues] 


Jake [00:32:11] I remember thinking that about, like early on when I was a student and listening to pieces by Ravel and they are so surprising and yet, of course, they have to go that way. You know, it's inevitable. And that's what we're looking for. At least I am as a composer. It's something that feels surprising and inevitable, at the same time. Predictable? I hope not. You know? But, you know, other people can say that all I can do is write, you know, and write what feels inevitable and surprising to me. 


Zane [00:32:40] Yeah. How do you do that? How do you figure out...how do you do it? 


Jake [00:32:44] I constantly look for things that challenge me and give me new perspective. So, you know, like opera on the stage, it goes from Dead Man Walking, to It's a Wonderful Life, to Moby Dick, to Three Decembers, to Intelligence. This new opera that I'm writing, which is about women spies in the South during the Civil War. And I'm doing it with an amazing cast and an amazing director, a woman named Jawole Zollar from Urban Bush Women in Brooklyn. And her company is going to be part of it. So, again, something that is just a totally different perspective. It's going to challenge me in new ways to come up with a different language and a different way of expressing it. Um, but exactly what you said, ooh, that's what I want, right?


Giacomo [00:33:26] Yeah, but we can't let that moment pass by. I have never heard this story before. You're kind of setting my hair on fire. And this is crazy what is this? 


Jake [00:33:33] It looks like your hair already was gone. [laughs]


Giacomo [00:33:35] It's gone. It's gone. It's happened once or twice before Jake. [laughs]. 


Zane [00:33:39] I bit my tongue on that one. 


All [00:33:40] [laughter]. 


Giacomo [00:33:43] But no, I've never heard the story. I mean, female spies in the Civil War..? 


Jake [00:33:48] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They were very important during the Civil War. Of course, we don't know about them because they're women. And in this particular case, it's black women and white women. So of course, we don't know those stories because it was rewritten and covered over. It's like, did you see the movie Hidden Figures a few years ago? 


Giacomo [00:34:06] Yes. 


Jake [00:34:06] About these amazing mathematicians and physics... What do you call them? Physics people. 


Giacomo [00:34:13] Astrophysicists. 


Jake [00:34:14] [laughs] Astrophysicists! Yeah, obviously, I'm not one. Who saved the space program, but were basically erased in favor of white men because they were black women. And I'm so angered and sick of hearing that, that I when I heard this story from a docent at the Smithsonian, this is over five years ago, I first heard this story. I just thought, that has to be the next one. It just literally set me on fire. And that's one of the things that I need. I need something that literally sets me on fire where I am shivering with music. I don't know how the music goes yet, but I know it's there. Those are the projects that I say yes to and some of them are surprising. But again, we're looking for inevitability and surprise. Right? So, yeah. So the gamut of works is is very, very broad because I want to keep challenging myself. I don't want to repeat myself so that's part of the way that I do that. They all sound very, very different to me. Like you wouldn't mistake an aria from Dead Man Walking for an aria from It's a Wonderful Life or from Intelligence or from Moby Dick, you know, because I try to create sound worlds for each of those pieces. But I still think it sounds like I wrote them. I mean, I think I do have a language that sounds like me, but I do try to learn and challenge and and, you know, create different musical worlds each time. Sometimes more successfully than others. Like I said, roadkill... [laughs]. 


Giacomo [00:35:55] Choral music in the United States and the rise of the choral movement from the 70s and the 80s feels like it was very much fueled by a political and social movement that was happening at the time. And that's nothing new, right? Like, I think in Eastern Europe, that has been the tradition for forever and the Americans kind of caught up in the 70s and 80s and moving forward till now. Do you see as the role today of the choir in relation to what needs to be said in terms of are there stories, or are there things that jumped to your mind that you're like, wow, what an instrument to use a choir to say the things that need to be said right now? Has that crossed your mind? Do you think that there's a responsibility there? 


Jake [00:36:40] Oh, my God, yes. When you think about all the social upheaval we've had with, you know, gender rights and, you know, gender violence, and Black Lives Matter and all of these social movements that are happening now, and what do we see? Not only do we see people marching, we see people singing together. 


[00:36:59] [Music excerpt: "Say Her Name," by Abby Dobson, sung by Abby Dobson and the Resistance Revival Chorus. Music description: A solo female voice speaks and then sings “Say the names of all the names that have not said.”  A choir repeats their names. A crowd of onlookers in Washington Square Park cheers along]


Jake [00:37:02] Which is the most uplifting thing. 


[00:37:20] [Music excerpt continues]. 


Jake [00:37:20] During the AIDS crisis in the 80s, Gay Men's Choruses started forming and formed these big choral societies all over the country and saved people's lives, you know, as well as raised awareness, brought people together, created community. I mean, we have that need now. It seems to me the choir has been central to bringing people together, giving them a home, giving them a voice that their voice matters as part of a community, and that when we sing collectively, it's more powerful. I mean, that's pretty basic information. But I have to tell you, when I was in my early 30s, I was invited by some former teachers of mine at UCLA to do a piece that they'd written for the Gay Men's Chorus in Los Angeles. I was at UCLA and I played keyboards. There were four keyboards in this piece, and then it went to the GALA Choruses—Gay and Lesbian Association of Choruses in Denver—and we did it in Dallas, too. And it was the first time because I was very closeted in my 20s, I had a lot of trouble dealing with being gay or, you know, accepting it. And suddenly I was surrounded by people who had been kicked out of their families, you know, removed, vilified. But they'd found a community. And I realized how much courage I was surrounded by. And it moved me so much that I came out and I moved from L.A. to San Francisco to to get my life going honestly and authentically. But it was a choir and it was being part of a choir, and it was that choral movement that changed the course of my life. 


Giacomo [00:39:12] Do you see that difference between... There's two terms that often get used interchangeably and that tripped me up. Audience. Community. What's the difference? 


Jake [00:39:29] Well, your community is not necessarily entirely your audience, is it? I mean, we all live in communities. Is that the audience that always shows up? No, there's many different audiences for many different kinds of things. There's the symphony audience. There's the opera audience. There are theater audience. There's musical theater audience. There are chorus audiences. There are audiences that love chamber music and don't want any singers in their chamber music. There are audiences that love solo singers and don't want any chamber music, you know, so it's all community and it's all different audiences within your community. But they aren't necessarily always the same thing. But what the arts do is they create an opportunity for community and bringing people together with different perspectives. One of the things that I love about being in an audience for any performance of any kind is you're sitting with people in that moment. You don't know how that person voted. You don't know what that person believes. You also don't know what that person has been through in their life, what their story is. And yet here we are as a community in that theater, a performance space about to experience something that will open up a dialog and connect us, because now we have a common and shared experience. We've experienced this thing together. And I don't know if you've ever had that feeling where you introduce yourself to the person that you're sitting next with and you start talking about the performance. Well, that can change people's lives. It's pretty amazing what it does. But audience and community, they're similar and dissimilar, aren't they? 


Giacomo [00:41:02] Yeah, you can bring people together to all observe something as an audience, which feels like it's just coming at us. 


Jake [00:41:08] Right. 


Giacomo [00:41:09] The community is where the fun stuff kind of, you know, where you start talking and engaging and it's between one another, you know. 


Jake [00:41:15] Yeah. 


Giacomo [00:41:16] Talking *to* versus talking *with* me. 


Jake [00:41:18] Yeah. 


Giacomo [00:41:18] I don't know, maybe that's another way to think about that, but yeah. Thanks for that. 


Zane [00:41:22] Yeah. So earlier you mentioned the piece "Faith Disquiet," which of course IOCSF, we just released a recording of that piece on our recent CD. 


[00:41:34] [Music excerpt: "Faith Disquiet III: If You Were Coming in the Fall," by Jake Heggie, performed by IOCSF. Music description: An SATB choir sings the Emily Dickinson text a cappella at a lilting, melodic tempo: If you were coming in the Fall, I'd brush the Summer by. With half a smile, and half a spurn, As Housewives do, a Fly. If I could see you in a year, I'd wind the months in balls---And put them each in separate Drawers,

For fear the numbers fuse---If only Centuries, delayed,I'd count them on my Hand, Subtracting, til my fingers dropped Into Van Dieman's Land,If certain, when this life was out---That yours and mine, should be I'd toss it yonder, like a Rind, And take Eternity--- But, now, uncertain of the length Of this, that is between, It goads me, like the Goblin Bee---That will not state--- its sting.”]


Jake [00:41:41] It's a wonderful recording, the whole thing. It's amazing. 


Zane [00:41:44] Thank you. It was one of the best performances we've given of that work. 


[00:41:53] [Music excerpt continues]. 


Zane [00:42:12] You just mentioned that you wrote it while you were at UCLA, but then you revised two of the three movements in 2008, which was 11 years after it was originally written. What prompted that revision? It wasn't the fact that IOC was going to perform it I assume. At the time Jerry arranged that. 


Jake [00:42:30] First of all, I have to be really honest with you. I think I wrote those pieces in like 1987. [laughs] When I was in grad school at UCLA, so, you know, another lifetime ago and then so you guys did them in ‘01, is that right? 


Zane [00:42:49] I think we did them in 2009.


Jake [00:42:52] OK. 


Zane [00:42:53] The scores say that they were revised in 2008. 


Jake [00:42:56] OK, so what I probably did was Jeremy Faust probably came up to me because he had done... He was the one who introduced me to your wonderful choir. And he had made some arrangements of a couple of my songs that you guys did and then invited me to present some pieces. And it had been so long since I had looked at those pieces that I decided probably to revise them. And so that's why I probably revised them then, and then I don't remember if I revised them further, but they were in manuscript up until 2008. So that's one of the reasons they got revised. And I still write everything in manuscripts that they had just been sitting on a shelf, you know, with all of my archive. So then they got put into, was it Sibelius or Finale? I don't know, I don't do that stuff. But anyway and so when they were going to be put into, you know, into a music program, I thought, well, maybe I should take another look at them. So I think that's probably what happened. It's hard to remember. It's been a long time now. 


Zane [00:44:07] It's true. 


Giacomo [00:44:07] So you don't engrave your own pieces? 


Jake [00:44:10] No, I'm lucky enough to build in copying expenses into whatever fee that I'm getting. And I work with, I've worked with the same person for 16 years now. His name is Bill Holab and he also represents me as a publisher. But yeah, I write everything by hand, operas, orchestra scores, everything, and then send them to him and then he puts it in the machine and sends it back. And then I write all over them and send them back. And that's, but I've never been interested in that part of it, putting it into the program. The creative part for me is putting it on the page, you know, using pencil and eraser, you know, and that's it, you know, paper, and the pencil, and the eraser, and the piano, and that's it, right? 


Zane [00:45:03] Yeah. You said you compose near the piano, not necessarily write at it, but near it. So that in case you need to play something, or hear something. 


Jake [00:45:10] Right. 


Zane [00:45:10] So what are your feelings on composers who do sit at their computer and they write everything right there into the notation software and get to hear some MIDI representation in real time as soon as they've written it? 


Jake [00:45:23] That's very dangerous, I think, especially for younger composers, because generally that means you're not hearing it first and then putting it onto the page. And I think it's very important to hear the piece first. You can discover it as you're going, of course. I mean, you're not going to hear the whole thing outright. Unless you're Mozart and he's been dead for a while, is what I heard. 


All [00:45:48] [laughing]. 


Giacomo [00:45:48] No,  he's hanging with JFK. 


All [00:45:56] [laughing]


Jake [00:45:56] Take the time to really listen to this piece before you put anything down. I hear a lot of things when I walk. I find that moving is very important for me when I'm creating and then I'll sing things into my phone, you know, into the recorder on my phone so that I have it for later. So I don't forget. And that may not even be the final version of it, but it might be the initial idea that leads me somewhere. So I try to get my ideas away from the piano, away from any machines except my phone, you know, and then I start to work it out there. And then I put it onto the page and then I'll send it to my copyist. And in the end, after we've done all the copying, correcting, I might ask him for a MIDI file to hear it, but mostly to make sure that there aren't any typos and that they are correctly marked. You know, the danger of putting it into the machine and listening to the MIDI right way, is that's not real life. And something that sounds good in real life might sound terrible on the MIDI, or something that sounds really good on the MIDI, might sound terrible in real life. You know, you have to get to know these sounds. And for the people you're writing for, I have to know who I'm writing for from the beginning so that I can make it as specific as possible. And then it can be many things. But if it's very broad and undefined, like I don't know who it is, it's going to be that way for the performer and the audience, too. It's like, what is this? But clarity, clarity, clarity, inevitability, surprise. And also just trying to hear it really, really clearly before I hear anyone else do it, I have to hear it in my head. Which is why creating the bones of the piece, the composition itself, is the challenging part. Orchestrating to me is like coloring. It's you know, that's the easy part. I can orchestrate eight to ten hours a day, no problem, and I can be anywhere. But when I'm actually creating the piece and composing, I have to be in my studio. I don't know how long it's going to take me. I might have an hour of successful time in the studio. I might have six or seven hours. I can't tell. But that's the challenging part, is how does it go? What does it sound like? And I have to hear it in my head first before I can let it out the door. Because once once you make one note, play one note on the piano or you hear it done. It's all different. You know, it's different than what you imagine. And all of that is about listening. And I think that is really, really important in what we do. I think most of composition, most of creative work is listening, developing your ear, listening to what's going on so that when you make a sound, it has been considered beforehand. 


Zane [00:48:37] That's great. 


Giacomo [00:48:37] Jake, looking forward, you said that music is all about gathering a community. We talked a little bit about community just now; experiencing something on a different level from what we normally do; the performance venues are a place of communal reflection. Looking past covid because we've been forced to move these gatherings online, which has removed a layer of that in-person communal reflection, what's been lost and gained in this online experience? And how has it changed your perspective of the importance of physical performance venues as a place of communal gathering, for better or worse? 


Jake [00:49:10] Oh, it's only enhanced how critical it is to be in the room. All of this is meant to be in the room. So you actually feel the vibration, because this is all about... Music is all about vibrations. 


[00:49:22] [Music excerpt begins in background, fading in and out behind Jake's comments: "Illumina faciem tuam," by Carlos Gesualdo, performed by Oxford Camerata, recorded in the Chapel of the Hertford College, Oxford. Music description: An SATB choir sings a glorious rendition of the latin mass text, with simple contrapuntal melodies and harmonies, as the sound reverberates throughout the chapel. The text: “Illumina faciem tuam super servum tuum, et salvum me fac in misericordia tua; Domine, non confundar, quoniam invocavi te.” (Translation: “Shew thy servant the light of thy countenance and save me for thy mercy's sake.Let me not be confounded, O Lord, for I have called upon thee.”)]


Jake [00:49:22] That's the miracle of it, right? That's the miracle of taking a Gesualdo score or a Bach score from hundreds of years ago. And you sing it and the vibration lives again. That's amazing. What else is like that? Experiencing that together, there is nothing that can replace that. I don't care how good the technology is, it is all about being in the room and I think what the pandemic has reinforced is just how critical that is to the performing arts. Every kind of performing arts. We need to be together in the room. We need to share the vibration. That's what changes our lives. That's what opens our hearts. That's what opens doorways for all of us. This feeling that, I don't know if you've ever been in a classroom of elementary school kids when in a trained opera singer comes in for the first time and opens his or her mouth and out comes the sound and these kids just like, "what is that?!" You know, some of them laugh, but all of them are just startled. And it would not be the same experience online having an opera singer open their mouth and sing through a computer screen. You know, it's that physical vibration and seeing a human being make this sound so extraordinary. It's like feeling a choir that, you know, being in a room with all those voices, all those beautiful trained voices singing and listening and in unison trained to do this amazing thing and then delivering it and giving it away so that it enters you and opens your heart. I mean, there's just nothing that can replace that. 


Zane [00:51:08] What a beautiful sentiment. And you said the name of the podcast, too, that was great. We did not pay Jake to do that by the way. That was all of his own accord. 


Jake [00:51:17] [laughs]


Giacomo [00:51:19] It is our aspiration as well. 


Jake [00:51:21] Yeah.


Zane [00:51:22] I wanted to ask a question. What would be your dream libretto or literary work that you would like to draw from to write an opera? And obviously you've written a lot of operas and you're working on right now that I can tell that the story is very moving, but something in a perfect world, if you could choose anything, is there a particular libretto or literary work that you'd like to draw from? 


Jake [00:51:47] I have a list, but I don't believe in talking about unborn children. [laughs]


Giacomo [00:51:55] He could tell us, but I'd have to kill us. 


Jake [00:51:56] [laughing] Exactly. Once you say it and put it out there, all of a sudden the magic and the mystery of it is somehow changed, you know? So I do have a list of projects that inspire and intrigued me that I would love to approach someday. But it has to be the right moment, has to be the right collaborators, the right team. So I can't tell you, unfortunately. Sorry. 


Zane [00:52:23] It's OK, keep it close to the vest. 


Giacomo [00:52:24] We'll wait. We're waiting with bated breath. 


Jake [00:52:27] Me too. It's like, the number of people that say, "oh, I can't wait to hear the end of this opera." And you're like, yeah, me either. 


All [00:52:35] [laughing]. 


Jake [00:52:35] I'm living for that. 


Giacomo [00:52:38] Jake, maybe one last thing since we're rounding up our time with you. 


Jake [00:52:41] Sure.  


Giacomo [00:52:42] One thing that we have heard loud and clear throughout all of these conversations we've had with composers, conductors, choristers, everyone, is that the thing that is most lacking, and that we're all most looking forward to because of this pandemic, is just a sense of joy. We just, we want, we hunger, we're looking for that moment. Nico mentioned it this morning when he said it's like when the barns [cows] come out in spring and they're all just frolicking and dancing, you know, and there's been so many examples of that in the past of, you know, after wars or famines or pandemics where music just comes back. And so we have a little project we're going called the Playlist of Joy. And in our own little way, we kind of wanted to spread that out there and kind of maybe give people a little bit of that, sort of preload that sentiment for us so that we can access that feeling. If you're able to access that feeling for yourself right now, that sense of joy, what music is doing that for you? What songs or what pieces of music anywhere along the spectrum are things that you go to where you're like, I just need a little bit of something to get me out of bed in the morning. 


Jake [00:53:45] Well, I have to tell you, first of all, we talked a little bit about this. I don't know if we had begun yet, but this time of year is my favorite time of year, right at the edge of the front edge of spring. 


[00:53:58] [Music excerpt: "The Four Seasons: Spring," by Antonio Vivaldi, performed by La Serenissima. Music description: A string quartet plays a lovely rendition of the traditional piece] 


Jake [00:53:58] Where things are blossoming and the sky seems so clear. The days are getting longer, which I love, and there's just this sense of optimism and possibility everywhere. The music that goes on in my head all the time, of course, is the stuff that I'm writing in the moment, which no one else is hearing. I'm the only one hearing it at the time. But if it isn't somehow inspiring me and bringing me joy, then it isn't the right thing. But when my husband and I are cooking dinner at home, our Pandora station is the Linda Ronstadt station, which plays all of our favorite songs from the 70s. And we love the Linda Ronstadt station. I love her. We love Carly Simon. We love Joni. We love James Taylor. We love Barbra. We love all the singers from that era. And it's just, that makes me very, very happy. All that music that I can sing along with it that people are carrying a tune. 


Giacomo [00:55:02] I love that trio, the Linda Ronstadt, Emmylou Harris, Dolly Parton. I always put that on. It's, it is pure joy. I mean, it's so beautiful. 


Jake [00:55:11] It's so joyful and it's so connected and fun. And there's just there's this impulse of, there's just such energy in it. And I just you know, it takes me back to a little more naive, sweeter time as well. You know, I think music does that for us, you know. 


Giacomo [00:55:28] And don't ask too much of you either. It's just gives. It just gives. 


Jake [00:55:31] But isn't that you know, that's what I was talking about. We give it away, right? We're looking for things that feed us, that give to us. And so our job as creative artists is to find something that inspires us and then give it away so it can feed someone you know. And just like Linda Ronstadt still does. 


Giacomo [00:55:51] We're going to add Linda, we're going to add Linda to the Playlist of Joy. Thank you for that. 


Zane [00:55:55] Absolutely. So obviously, you know, everything's been put on hold due to covid, but are there any, you know, hopefully upcoming performances or releases that we should tell our listeners to be on the lookout for? 


Jake [00:56:07] I have actually several releases right now. We just released this project with Margaret Atwood called Songs for Murdered Sisters, and we filmed it at the 16th Street Train Station in Oakland. And it's available on Marquee TV through Houston Grand Opera's website for the next month. It's a pretty extraordinary piece with kind of a harrowing story behind it, but it yielded really beautiful, transformative stuff. Also a piece that I wrote a year ago called Intonations: Songs from the Violins of Hope. 


Jake [00:56:43] That was just released on Pentatone, and it features these amazing instruments that have been restored. They were played by Jews in concentration camps and have been restored by this amazing team in Tel Aviv. And I wrote a piece for them with Sasha Cooke as the singer and Daniel Hope as a soloist. And that piece is out right now. 


[00:57:24] [Music excerpt: "Intonations: Songs from the Violins of Hope: No.1: Ashes," by Jake Heggie, performed by Daniel Hope, violin; Sasha Cooke, soprano. Music description: A sudden jump of a double-stop chord on the violin surprises the listener, as a voice intones mysterious “oooh” sounds]


Jake [00:57:24] My opera Three Decembers was recorded by Opera San Jose, and they're still streaming that. It stars Susan Graham. And I'm about to go on a recital tour with the amazing mezzo-soprano Jamie Barton, and I wrote a piece for her that has texts by five women you probably wouldn't expect text from. And it's called What I Miss the Most. And they're texts that were written last April when we had been about a month into lockdown. And the texts are by Joyce DiDonato, Patti LuPone, Sister Helen Prejean, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Kathleen Kelly, who is a pianist and conductor. But, and it's interesting, that piece. I'm glad I asked for the texts when I did, because then, it was before we knew the extent of what was going to happen and all the horror of last summer and the fall was upon us. And so you look back at that time and it does feel like this sweetly naive, even though it was dark, it was hard, it was before all hell broke loose anyway. So those are a few pieces. And then I'm workshopping my new opera this summer in Boulder, and it's supposed to open this fall in Houston. But we don't know. You know, it might. It might. It might not. And then other things have been postponed to future seasons. But we're just trying to take advantage of walking every day, enjoying life. And my husband and I actually have time together because he was a Beach Blanket Babylon for over 20 years as King Louis. And so when the show closed at the end of twenty nineteen, all of a sudden we could have dinner together. And so we get to go for walks together and have dinner every night, which has been kind of amazing. We've been together 22 years and that's the first time we've been able to do that. So I'm just enjoying all of that as well. But yeah, lots going on. Still writing quite a bit. 


Zane [00:59:19] When you're out walking with your husband, do you ever, every so often you have to tell him, "hey, wait, hang on," and pull your phone out and sing a little bit of stuff into the phone?


Jake [00:59:26] Oh yeah. Oh yeah, or I'll tell him, "you just go on ahead. I have to sing something into my phone right now." And then I do it really, really quiet because I don't want anyone to hear it. Until it's for sure, I don't want anyone to hear it. 


Giacomo [00:59:38] And for folks who are interested in finding all of those things, we'll be sure to put in our liner notes in the program notes will have links to all of those things available for folks who are listening to. 


Jake [00:59:48] Great. 


Giacomo [00:59:48] Where can people find you online? 


Jake [00:59:51] Just jakeheggie.com, you know, my website. I actually have no social media. 


Giacomo [00:59:56] Bless, thank God, me neither. 


Jake [00:59:59] I am a very, very, very private person. [laughs] And so you know, I had Facebook from the time it started until 2014, I logged off and I haven't been back on because it's just too public. I'm just, I'm so private and I just, I cherish the privacy and the quiet. 


Zane [01:00:21] Awesome. Well, we appreciate you sharing a bit of yourself with us today on this podcast, because it's really great to hear about your methods and your inspiration. 


Jake [01:00:32] And my madness... 


Zane [01:00:33] Sure. I mean, all the talented people in the world are a little bit mad, right? 


Jake [01:00:39] It's great to visit with both of you. Thank you so much for inviting me to join you. 


Zane [01:00:42] Yeah. Thanks for being here. Awesome. All right. Have a great night Jake. 


Jake [01:00:46] All right. Thanks, guys. 


Zane [01:00:48] Bye bye. 


Giacomo [01:00:48] Thank you. 


Outro [01:00:50] Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the In Unison podcast. If you've got ideas for our podcast, please send us a message at ideas@inunisonpodcast.com. And who knows, maybe Chorus Dolores will ask us to talk about it during announcements. In Unison is sustained, nourished, and fostered by you, our loyal and loving listeners. And don't forget to subscribe to In Unison on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. You can find us on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook @inunisonpod. And hey, if you like what you heard, tell a friend or a section mate. Thanks again for tuning in. See you soon. 


Chorus Dolores [01:01:29] Tour performance schedules distributed by Chorus Dolores, who's wondering if anyone else plans to visit the harmonica museum! 


Credits [01:01:38] In Unison is produced and recorded by Mission: Orange Studios. Our theme music is Mr. Puffy, written by Avi Bortnick, arranged by Paul Kim, and performed by the Danish vocal jazz ensemble Dynamic on their debut album, This Is Dynamic. Special thanks to Paul Kim for permission. Be sure to check them out at dynamicjazz.dk.


Giacomo DiGrigoli
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S2 E04: From Star Wars to Drones with Nico Muhly