S4E05: Getting Down to Business: Randy Kikukawa & the Business of Choral Arts
Today’s episode features a conversation with Randy Kikukawa, a stalwart of the San Francisco choral community for over forty years. Randy’s vast choral experience - including decades with the Golden Gate Men’s Chorus and the GAPA Men’s Chorus as a music director, general manager, CFO, CEO, and myriad other roles - make Randy a uniquely qualified expert on the details of running a community choir in the Bay Area. We’re happy to share some of Randy’s pearls of wisdom on topics ranging from audience growth to choral organizational structures and board governance, and hope to continue the conversation as a valuable resource for our choral community at large.
And now a word from our hosts!
Music excerpts
“Pobreng alindahaw (Poor Dragonfly),” by Tomás Villaflor, arranged by Emmanuel B. Gregorio, performed by GAPA Men’s Chorus
“Aruku,” by Noboru Kitagawa, performed by the Golden Gate Men’s Chorus
Episode references
Theme Song: Mr. Puffy by Avi Bortnik, arr. by Paul Kim. Performed by Dynamic
Episode Transcript
Intro [00:00:07] Hello! And welcome to In Unison, the podcast about new choral music and the conductors, composers and choristers who create it. We are your hosts: I am Zane Fiala, Artistic Director of the International Orange Chorale of San Francisco, and I'm Giacomo DiGrigoli, a tenor in IOCSF, the Golden Gate Men's Chorus and the San Francisco Symphony Chorus. And this is In Unison. (I like being in unison!)
Zane [00:00:35] Hey, everybody! Today's episode of In Unison features a conversation with Randy Kikukawa, a stalwart of the San Francisco choral community for over 40 years. Randy's vast choral experience, including decades with the Golden Gate Men's Chorus and the GAPA Men's Chorus as a music director, general manager, CFO, CEO and myriad other roles, make Randy a uniquely qualified expert on the details of running a community choir in the Bay Area. We're excited to share with you some of Randy's pearls of wisdom on topics ranging from audience growth to choral organizational structures and board governance, and we hope to continue the conversation on future episodes as a valuable resource for our choral community at large. Since this episode is largely about the business side of the choral arts, we won't be playing a whole lot of music during the conversation, but let's set the stage a bit by starting off with a performance by one of Randy's choruses, the GAPA Men's Chorus, live in Japan during the Hand-in-Hand Tokyo Festival, performing "Pobreng Alindahaw', which means poor dragonfly, written by Tomàs Villaflor, arranged by Emmanuel B. Gregorio. [00:01:47] [Music excerpt: a men's chorus sings a lilting melody about a poor butterfly, swept to and fro by the breeze, searching desperately for a flower to land on.]
Zane [00:03:56] OK, joining us today on In Unison is Randy Kikukawa. Born in Wisconsin as a fourth-generation Japanese-American, or Yonsei, and raised there and in Hawaii, randy's musical journey started in church choirs in elementary school and continued with the Honolulu Symphony Chorus in high school, the Harvard-Radcliffe Collegium Musicum and the UC Berkeley Collegium Musicum. In 1982, Randy became a founding member of the Golden Gate Men's Chorus, serving its board and in various executive capacities, including his current roles as CFO and managing director. He also sang with and served on the board of the Lesbian/Gay Chorus of San Francisco. Randy is currently the music director of The GAPA (which is the GLBTQ plus Asian-Pacific Alliance) Men's Chorus, and has been a huge help to me and Giacomo by being an advisor to this podcast. Randy has been a queer activist for more than 30 years. He holds an A.B. in German literature from Harvard and an M.A. in historical German linguistics from UC Berkeley. Randy, we are positive this is gonna be a super interesting conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today!
Randy [00:05:19] Well, thank you for having me here! And hopefully it will be interesting to your listeners.
Zane [00:05:24] I'm sure it will be.
Giacomo [00:05:26] I've had the pleasure of knowing Randy for the last - God, has it been 20 years? - singing in the GGMC with Randy in various roles that he's had with the group. So, I happened to know him well enough to know probably most of the answers that he's gonna come up with for this icebreaker question. But for our audience to get to know Randy a little bit better, Randy, here's an icebreaker for you.
Randy [00:05:48] OK.
Giacomo [00:05:49] In your life, you have traveled all around the world. Where is the strangest or most unique place you've eaten a meal?
Randy [00:05:58] This one you probably don't know.
Giacomo [00:06:00] Oh.
Randy [00:06:01] I was traveling as a poor, starving graduate student in Macedonia and, as a high school student, I loved Macedonian folk music and Macedonian culture, so it was interesting for me. I was in the Vardar River Valley and there was a train that made stops everywhere and there was an interesting looking town and I just stopped and said, "Let's get off and let's see what's here." And we were hungry. So, there seemed to be a... what looked like a restaurant and... But there were people eating. So, we went and wandered over and it was a Sunday, and it turned out maybe it wasn't a restaurant. I don't know. I don't speak very much Macedonian, but the people realized that we were hungry. So, they... they brought food out for us to eat and we just sat and really didn't talk much. But we sort of enjoyed each other's company. They brought food and beverages and everything. And afterwards I said I wanted to pay for it and they said, "Oh, OK." And they sort of, with hand signs, told me how much it was. This was during the Yugoslavian hyperinflation, so it was like 17,000 dinars to a dollar. So, they somehow motioned to me that this was going to be 100 dinars, which... (I don't even know how much that was. What is that? Like half a cent? [laughter from Giacomo and Zane] When it's 17,000 dinars?).
Randy [00:07:20] But anyway, it was this wide spread of food and we didn't get to order. They just brought food out for us. And all these people, it was Sunday, so they were all dressed in their Sunday best, which oddly enough, is the Macedonian folk costumes, you know? And they had musicians out and they were singing and dancing, and I happen to know the song that they were singing, and I know the dance that they were dancing. So, I got up and joined them and they sort of were like, "Oh, OK, this strange Asian-American, Asian person wants to join us." But I knew the dance and I also knew the songs, the lyrics, and sang it. And they were just like, stunned like this Martian had appeared out of nowhere [laughter from Giacomo and Zane].
Randy [00:08:01] [laughter] But it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of food and it was very enjoyable considering that we could barely communicate with any of the people that were there. So...
Giacomo [00:08:10] That's fantastic.
Randy [00:08:11] That's probably the strangest meal I've had. [laughter]
Giacomo [00:08:14] That's, that's spectacular. And Randy, most of us don't speak any Macedonian whatsoever. So... [laughter]... that you speak a little is...
Randy [00:08:20] Yes. [laughter]
Giacomo [00:08:21] ... is impressive in and of itself. So, I want to actually spend a minute just gushing about you in addition to what Zane said about you, Randy, because as Zane mentioned, you know, you have been quite an advisor to this podcast. And one of the reasons we wanted to do this episode is because you are truly just a fountain of knowledge when it comes to choral arts in the United States period. And you have seen more and done more than I think most people have done in their lifetimes in regards to choral music. And the truth is, whenever we have a question about anything, you are one of the first people I will always say... You are THE first person I would always go to and ask whether it's about how to organize a board or, you know, responsibilities of chorus members or whatever. You've always sort of got an answer to anything. And if you don't know, you know, someone who does know.
Randy [00:09:06] Or where to find the answer. [laughter]
Giacomo [00:09:08] Or where to find the answer. Indeed! I have never known you to not be able to, to root out an answer to anything, any problem that we've ever had. And so today, we realize there's quite a bit we could talk about and we might make this a miniseries. Who knows? But we thought we'd spend some time sort of talking about something that we haven't really talked much about on this podcast, but it might be of interest, which is the business of actually running a chorus. I know that there are a lot of choristers out there who serve on boards, who are volunteer members who support their organizations in many different ways. There are probably lots of listeners as well who attend concerts and sort of understand or who support choral organizations across the country and around the world. And so we wanted to have just a quick conversation with you about some of those, some of those topics about what it takes to run a chorus.
Giacomo [00:09:55] And one way we thought might be interesting might be to pose the question to you about starting a new ensemble. Let's say you were thinking about starting a new group today, a new community choir, and you wanted to get the organization financially off the ground. That's a big problem that a lot of groups sort of tackle right now, which is, you know, how do you raise funds, how do you do what you need to do? What's the first thing you'd focus on?
Randy [00:10:23] Well, we're speaking from a business point of view, so I'm assuming that there is a music director who is putting word out and collecting names and getting singers to show up.
Giacomo [00:10:34] Mm-hmm.
Randy [00:10:35] So, in terms of organizing this chorus... unless you have a lawyer or an attorney who is a member who wants to take on the task pro bono for you, most of the legal aspects can be handled by somebody who's not an attorney. The first thing you want to do, assuming that you want to be a nonprofit organization and not a for-profit organization, would be to register your group with the Secretary of State. (And this is for California. I'm assuming this is the same for other states as well.).
Randy [00:11:10] But that's the first thing you would do: you would send in articles of incorporation and you can get those online. So, it just has to be very basic. But you would get articles of incorporation. You would set up a minimum, I think, of three people to be the officers of that corporation and you would get the Secretary of State to endorse it. And that's the first step you would do in terms of creating a viable organization. Everything comes from after that because, once you've done that, you actually have a business in your state. People think that getting nonprofit status from the IRS might be one of the first steps, but you can't even do that without articles of incorporation.
Randy [00:11:56] The next step you would take is, within 27 months of your starting your organization - and in most cases, the start date starts running as of the date that the Secretary of State stamps your paperwork - you have 27 months to apply for nonprofit status with the IRS. The IRS will accept your application - it's a Form 1023, I believe. It's been many years since I've done one. But IRS 1023. They will ask you to fill out all this information about your group. You will need to specify an officer who is the contact person in charge. That could be the music director, or it can be any individual. And they will ask you for your state's articles of incorporation. And once they've reviewed that, they will then make a determination that you are a private foundation. And that is a stepping stone to being a public charity. So as a private foundation, you will be given an EI... You will have to apply for an EIN number, which is similar to a Social Security number. And then you will get a letter from the IRS stating, "We have accepted your application and we now consider you to be a private foundation." And you have then a five-year wait period during which you can prove public support. And for most choruses, nonprofit choruses, proving public support means that you have 1) a thirty-three and third percent of your finances are supported by receipts and public donations, basically not from inside people. In other words, they don't want it to be something that's funded by the members of the organization.
Giacomo [00:13:44] Oh, interesting. Would that include something like dues, as well? Or are you just talking about like tickets or any form of income?
Randy [00:13:49] Dues and tuition would be considered to be inside.
Giacomo [00:13:53] Mmm.
Randy [00:13:53] So, what you want is ticket, earned revenue or donations and contributions, including grants, both private and public. So, once you have that, you have a five year period during which they will consider you to have your status. And at the end of five years, you are obligated to turn in all your financials for that period of time and they will make a final determination. So, it's a long timeframe. But from the time that they give you your initial determination letter, you can operate as a nonprofit, but your legal status is technically a private foundation, and you don't establish yourself as a public charity until you have that five year period completed.
Giacomo [00:14:37] Let's talk a little bit more about the organizational structure. So now you've sort of posited that this is a nonprofit community choir, it's going... it's on the path to becoming a 501c3 corporation. Let's talk a little bit about the organizational structure, specifically about the role of a board on a choir. How do you think about why a choir should have a board? I mean, I know legally as a 501c3, you must. But what are the responsibilities of that board?
Randy [00:15:03] From my experience, there are like three different routes that choruses take in terms of having a board of directors. One of them is where the board is a fundraising board of outside people that oversee the finances of the organization. And that and, in this case, it would be the choruses would mostly have an internal structure to handle production and all of the events and all of that kind of thing, and it would be external to the board of directors. So basically, you would need to have, like an executive director, you need to have a production staff and management. For many smaller choruses that can't hire production staff and have an executive director, you actually will have a working board. In which case, a lot of the board members will come from among your membership and that would imply that the board is not only in charge of the finances and fiduciary responsibility, but also for the management of the chorus. And I would say that probably most of the choruses I'm familiar with use that mode until they can actually have a budget that's big enough to afford to hire staff, paid staff. Because you can always rely on your volunteers and every, every group really relies heavily on volunteers. But until you have paid staff, you don't have people who are actually obligated to complete their tasks. In other words, when you have volunteers and somebody falls through, you can't penalize them or take them out, you know, to the woodshed. So, um... [laughter from Giacomo and Zane].
Randy [00:16:43] So anyway...
Giacomo [00:16:44] We might. [laughter from Zane]
Randy [00:16:45] That's what I would think. And the third route that you can take is you - and this is for groups that are a little more established - you would have a management team, you would have a board that is mostly for collecting fundraisers and major donors, and then you have an advisory board. And your advisory board actually might be tasked more heavily with the fundraising aspect because your advisory board is gonna be big names and celebrities who are not going to take part in the day-to-day management of your organization. But they're just there to adorn your letterhead, basically. And some of them will actually assist with the fundraising. But in most cases, it's to show that you have a certain prestige, that you could get these big-name music directors or big-name foundation members or corporation heads to be advisers to your organization. And many of them will take an active role and many of them will not. So, it depends on how you set it up.
Randy [00:17:53] So when you're setting up your organization, you have your music director, you hold your first rehearsal, you've got somebody working in the background on paperwork for legal status and everything. When you set up your board, as I said, they usually require a minimum of three people. The articles of incorporation may or may not be very specific. If it's not specific, you would also have a set of documents called your bylaws. And your bylaws, you actually need to set those up quickly - you can always amend them later on. But the bylaws are where you will specify what type of board do we have. What are the rules of the officers? What are the requirements of the membership? If there are dues or tuition due... you know, how is that handled? What are your policies regarding admitting members? Who's in charge of admitting members? Who has the responsibilities basically for everything?
Randy [00:18:49] And then keep in mind that your, your bylaws can obviously be amended. So there... but you want to have them in place so that when there is any conflict that arises, you can play back to the bylaws and say, "This is how we had decided and this was decided before the conflict occurred." And I think that's pretty important to have in place. You can't just make up rules as you go. There have to be rules in place so that you can tell people, "This is what was in place already. This is how we're going to handle everything.".
Zane [00:19:21] Yeah.
Randy [00:19:21] A lot of conflicts often occurs when music directors take their groups on journeys that the musicians don't want to follow [laughter from Giacomo], or the production team decided that lighting and costumes is more important than the acoustics or, you know, things like that where there's valid conflict, you know, because people have different views and visions of what can be done and the bylaws will stipulate which people have the right to make what determinations and what rules they have.
Zane [00:19:53] That's a good segue into the next question that I have, which is: how would you define a healthy relationship between the artistic and the executive sides of a choir? You know, what does a good working relationship between an A.D., an artistic director, and an executive director look like to you?
Randy [00:20:14] OK, so if an organization has an E.D., it means that they're pretty well-established, that they have, that they're paying somebody to be an executive director. Many choruses, that position is almost an equivalent to the artistic director, and they're equally paid in many cases. In some cases, the E.D. actually makes more than the artistic director. It really comes down to the vision outlined in the articles of the incorporation and bylaws. Does the artistic director... Is the artistic director simply an employee who is hired on to carry out the mission of the management? Or is the artistic director given full artistic independence in the organization?
Randy [00:21:00] I'm familiar, obviously, with many of the GALA choruses, the Gay and Lesbian Choruses of America and North America, and they wildly diverge on how they define the artistic director. The E.D. definition is more or less the same, but the A.D. really has a lot of different definitions. There are some choruses that basically have a music committee that hands over the repertoire to the artistic director and says, "Here it is. This is what we're doing." There are other choruses that say artistic director has full independence, not only on what they're going to sing, but where they're going to sing it, who gets to sing it. Many choruses say, "Oh, we're gonna audition for solos!" But there are some choruses that say, "We don't audition for soloists. The Artistic Director knows the voices and knows what he wants, or he, she or she wants and simply makes that decision.
Randy [00:21:53] So, I mean, as I said, that has to be stipulated in the bylaws so that people don't complain after the fact. My personal feeling is that if you're going to have a successful chorus - and this is coming from me as being a manager of a chorus, an artistic director of another chorus and a singer in choruses - is that you need to give the artistic director as much independence as you can allow.
Zane [00:22:18] Agreed.
Randy [00:22:19] Otherwise, it will not work because from my view as an artistic director, I cannot really get behind the performance of music that I do not personally want to perform, that I do not like or that I don't, that I don't have an enthusiasm for.
Giacomo [00:22:36] Or that... Or that it doesn't or doesn't suit the mission or for whatever reasons, as an artist...
Randy [00:22:39] Right.
Giacomo [00:22:39] You would disagree with the pieces.
Randy [00:22:41] Right. So, I think that, what you're - back to your question, your original question A.D. versus E.D. - that a lot of people mix up who's in charge. The executive director is an employee and reports to a specific person (now, whether that's to the CEO of the organization or to the artistic director, makes a big difference). Who supervises the person basically, legally? If it's the artistic director, then that's... there's the answer. The E.D. works for you, for the A.D. and basically as an assistant to the A.D.. In most cases, however, the A.D. is not the supervisor. In most cases, the E.D. is an employee of the board. Which means that, in a very well-run chorus, obviously the only option the board would have is to either release or higher. And they really need to give independence to the E.D. until they're not satisfied with the performance. You don't want to harness your E.D. into channels that they don't want to take. So basically, I think a very important thing is hiring the correct person who will adhere to your mission and adhere to your directions. Once you have an E.D., you have to respect their decisions given the job description that they have been given and allow them to do their job. Unless, of course, you need to release them.
Randy [00:24:18] But I think a lot of organizations, they have quarrels and fights with the E.D., and I think if you have the correct person, you're not going to have those kinds of fighting. You're simply going to say this is a good decision and we're going to follow you.
Giacomo [00:24:29] Into a high... high-trust situation between...
Randy [00:24:31] Yes, you have to really trust the person. And the same way that you trust your artistic director when she or he brings you a piece of music and you look at you say, "Oh my God, what is this?"
Giacomo [00:24:43] [laughter] It's never happened.
Randy [00:24:45] Right. Most choruses that are successful, will give it a try. And it's, and I think the artistic director will realize whether or not the piece is too difficult or not. Does it have enough enthusiasm from the singers as to whether to continue rehearsing it or whether that should be, you know? And you know, basically it's a case of, you know, everything new is scary and uninteresting. And you have to, like, give everything a chance. So, I think it boils down to the correct hiring, basically.
Randy [00:25:24] So obviously, it is a founder situation where a person has found an organization, you haven't hired the artistic director. But once the artistic director steps down and a board has to find a replacement, that's probably the most important thing that the board or the, or whoever's set up to hire, has to do because you're basically continuing the mission. So, E.D. Hiring is also as important. But you know, A.D. hiring is probably primary.
Giacomo [00:25:55] How about the third leg of the stool? The choristers. Does the choir itself have any say in the organizational structure? Should they?
Randy [00:26:03] Again, there are many different approaches to that. There are some boards that are self-perpetuating, in which case you have board members who cycle in and cycle out. This is given the idea that there are actually terms because that's...
Giacomo [00:26:19] Mmm.
Randy [00:26:19] I know of some places where they don't have terms, you know? The board members are simply there. And I don't think that's a healthy way to run a board. But if you assume that there are terms, there are some boards that are self-perpetuating, which means that the board members appoint their successors and the membership basically are there... They're not really members, if you put it that way. They're just volunteers. I think a more successful model is to have a board that is elected and have an idea and have a description of what consists of a membership. Most choruses I know have, in their bylaws, a section that describes what membership is, how to maintain it, what it means.
Randy [00:27:04] In many cases, if you have dues or tuition that is due, that's the ideal way to determine whether somebody is or is not a member. In other words, if they are current with their dues or current with their scholarships, then they are a member and they are a voting member that can vote for the board members as they run for election, whether it's for one year or two year or three year terms, or four year terms, whatever it is. That way, you have a membership that can be in... yeah, involved with the running of the organization and they have something to... They have a buy-in with your organization.
Giacomo [00:27:41] Right. So, if you don't like the direction that an organization is going, one option is, "Well, thanks. I, you know, I won't sing with this group anymore." But another is to empower the membership to feel that they have a say in either the make up of the board or... I mean, you certainly don't want a situation, I feel, where membership is, you know, giving input on artistic decisions and things like that. I mean, yes, that does happen sometimes. But I think in the clearly run organization, membership will have its way or its voice in the form of a vote of its board or in the direction of the organization itself.
Randy [00:28:16] True. But you mentioned the idea of music repertoire. There are many choruses that have music committees that are made up of members and outsiders who, in the bylaws, specifically have a role to play. Now, whether or not they have a veto power is up to them. But I think it's actually healthy to give the membership a way to present music. Not every artistic director has the ability to know and be familiar with every single piece of music ever written. And obviously, the members have a lot of experience and a lot of ability in terms of knowing choral music. And so, I think their input is very important. And having a mechanism for allowing that input is just as important, even if the artistic director has the final say. I think it's healthy for the membership to know that they have the ability to do it, give input and be heard, even if it's to say, "No, this is not, not something we're going to do." Or if something is too difficult or that kind of thing.
Randy [00:29:24] I know from experience that we've had... I've been in many choruses where we... where members have basically given music to the artistic director and, with enough time, you know, some of the pieces fit into a program. So I really think that the members need to feel that they're being heard, you know.
Giacomo [00:29:44] I think it's... It feels a little healthier, you know, if you're... Especially if it's a community choir where you're really volunteering...
Randy [00:29:50] Mm-hmm.
Giacomo [00:29:50] ... Your time and your efforts and your talents. It certainly feels good to know that you have some say in the direction of the group.
Randy [00:29:56] Also, your money because if it's...
Giacomo [00:29:58] And your dues, yes.
Randy [00:29:58] Yes.
Giacomo [00:30:00] I want to shift a little bit back to the example we were talking about earlier of this choir that had just started and shift gears a little bit over to talking about the process of budgeting and planning a season. So, you've just started this new organization. You're going to start thinking into the future about, you know, you want to let your audience know what's coming. You want to be prepared for an upcoming season or seasons. So let's talk a little bit about what that process looks like. What does the process of planning a season artistically and fiscally look like? What should it start with?
Randy [00:30:36] That's a good question, because many organizations are so involved with production and rehearsing and learning music that they really don't have time to plan further out than the next three months or the next concert that's being sung. And you can operate that way as long as you don't go in the red.
Randy [00:30:58] But if you want to sort of maintain the stability, a fiscal stability, you do need to have budgeting and, of course, with the IRS application, you need to give them four years of financials. So... and many grant applications will require three years of financials. So, you have to prove that there is stability. And now, financials are after the fact, so those are not budgets. Those are simply like statements, income statements of income and expenses.
Randy [00:31:26] When you talk about budgets, people, I think, have an odd interpretation of what a budget is. Budget is not something which is, which is fixed that we must adhere to. A budget is a projection, to the best of our ability, so that we can track ourselves and see how we are measuring against it. And so in, given that idea, a budget can always be amended or changed if an expense has to be added or an expense can be removed, or if some income shows up, you can add it in. As I said, many choruses operate on a month to month, or a concert set to concert set. And eventually you will need to set up a minimum of a one year budget so that you're saying this is you get input from everybody, from all the production team, from your artistic director, from all of your membership about their ability to pay dues or ability to reach donors. And you get the best estimate of what your income and what your expenses are going to be in a 12 month period. And you cobble this together.
Randy [00:32:36] And for a budget to be good and work, it should be balanced. I think a lot of people forget that portion of it [laughter from Giacomo], that just because you know how much you're going to spend doesn't mean [laughter] that it's going to be a balanced budget. So, ideally, you want to have a surplus because that looks good on paper and it's also good for the health of the organization. You don't want to spend every penny that you're making every year. So when you're talking about budget, you create the budget, you create line items and you create it based on your own needs, you know - what kind of income do you have, do you have ticket sales, do you have donors? Do you have foundation grants? Do you have advertising sales? Do you sell baseball caps and things? Do you have that kind of thing? Merchandising? Are you selling recordings online? So, all of those things are income stream. Do you sell cookies during the intermission? You know, I mean, that kind of thing. And then for expenditures, you must have your production expenditure, which I advise, highly advise breaking up as a separate grouping in your, in your budget so that you can easily identify what is production versus not production. So, operating expenses versus actual production expenses. In many grants, they require that you estimate what percentage of your operating expenses go to every specific production. So, that way it makes it a little easier to just say, "We did three productions this year. So one third, one third, one third."
Randy [00:34:03] But you'd have your production expenses, you'd have your rent, your office expenses, supplies, fundraising expenses. And then, of course, you have your payroll - so, your payroll expenses. And then second to that your taxes, your payroll taxes, your unemployment taxes, the worker's comp, the disability taxes... There are so many different taxes [laughter] that you have to pay as a nonprofit. You don't have to pay income tax, but you do have to pay all the other taxes that come along with employment and running an organization.
Randy [00:34:38] I was just looking last night in preparation for this talk of what are the different things that you need to file. There are six different state filings that are mandatory every year or every other year, and there are two mandatory ones for the federal government for any nonprofit. So, that means basically there are eight fairly comprehensive filings which you must do. So, unless you have a hired CPA, you really need to have somebody who is on track and on top of everything. Otherwise, it's very easy for you to lose your nonprofit status, which is then very hard.
Giacomo [00:35:14] Who typically is that role or fulfills that role within an organization?
Randy [00:35:18] You want to identify a CFO. Well, whether or not that CFO is a member of the board who is from the board or somebody who is elected by the board from outside, you need to have somebody who is responsible who can handle all of these and keep the board abreast of all of the filings that are happening. Most choruses are lucky enough that, among their membership, there is at least one CPA or one corporate lawyer [chuckles]. When... And if these people are singing members, their contribution, their volunteerism is their expertise and knowing how to set up the legal aspects or the financial aspects.
Randy [00:36:00] If you don't have one of those people, then you either have to recruit one or hire one, because that's a very important function for an organization. You can have the best musicians, you can have the best artistic director, commissions and everything in the world and have a huge audience. But if you do not have your financial ducks in a row, things will fall apart very quickly.
Giacomo [00:36:26] I want to talk about something that's really personally important to me. I'm just... A personal belief of mine, which is to value art and artists. I think that that's something we all can believe in, that the work that we do as artists and musicians should be fairly compensated. And we've been talking about expenses and planning for a season, and we talked about sort of artistic staff and employees as part of that. How do you think about fairly compensating staff and artists involved in your music creation?
Randy [00:36:54] Obviously... This is not just artistic staff, but I believe that a lot of people are not fairly compensated. I mean, education people, teaching...
Giacomo [00:37:04] Mm-hmm.
Randy [00:37:05] People who are doing, you know, all kinds of jobs in society, I think deserve to get paid more. But, there's the reality of how much money is available. So, it's balancing that. My personal feeling about musicians, choruses, instrumentalists and things is that you need to compensate them fairly, but they have to recognize that the success of your organization hinges on their being affordable. I hope that makes sense. In other words, I want to pay visiting musicians and instrumentalists as much as we can afford, but I don't want to bankrupt the organization to do so.
Randy [00:37:42] And, I think, most instrumentalists who are contractors recognize this, and so you simply have to like reach an agreement of what is fair versus what is affordable. And I think a lot of musicians - when I say musicians, I mean, instrumentalists who come to accompany your organization, your chorus - recognize this is your budget. This is all you can afford and they have to make a decision then is it worth their while to do? Obviously, if you are of a high caliber of quality and excellence, they will want to do it regardless of how much you're paying, but you do want to pay them fairly.
Randy [00:38:19] And that brings up another thing. There always has to be a contract, a written contract. You need to have a standard template for when you have a contract - whether you are hiring an instrumentalist or a lighting person or a stage director or anybody - you need to have them sign a contract so that they know what the expectation is and they know how much they're getting paid. The reason for this is because these are all contractors and they have to declare their income individually and pay their own payroll taxes because you're not covering that. As a contractor, you're only issuing them a 1099 form showing how much money was made. And so they need to have a clear understanding of what they're getting.
Randy [00:39:01] For everybody else, and I know a lot of choruses don't follow this, your pay, your staff members and your artistic director, your accompanist, your assistant music director need to be employees of the organization. A lot of people get around this ruling because there's, you know, they sort of there's wiggle room as to what is identified as an employee. But I, when you were talking about fair compensation, I think it is very unfair to categorize people as contractors and get away with not contributing to their Social Security and Medicare, not paying for their unemployment insurance, not paying for the disability and not paying for their workers' comp, which is something that contract employees do not get. Now, whether or not you get sick leave and vacation, that's another issue. I think that, for choruses, sick leave and vacation leave are sort of like not really a question because you're not full time employees, you're not, you know, that kind of thing.
Randy [00:40:01] But in terms of benefits? I mean, some choruses will offer medical benefits, some choruses offer IRAs, 401... umm not IRAs, but 401 plans... 403b plans actually for nonprofits. But the minimum should be unemployment, disability and worker's comp, which only comes from being an employee of an organization. I recognize that you may have to keep people as contractors initially because the recordkeeping and the paperwork for hiring employees is very extensive. But of course, then again, there are payroll services that will handle that for you for a fee.
Giacomo [00:40:45] I think what you said about being able to pay folks as much as you can afford...
Randy [00:40:50] Mm-hmm.
Giacomo [00:40:50] That it's basically a function of your budget.
Randy [00:40:54] Mm-hmm.
Giacomo [00:40:54] And presumably, most organizations are typically on a growth trajectory. I mean, you may grow year over year as you become more and more established, particularly in your early years. How do you start thinking about getting comps? I mean, in terms of an organization that's 10 years old should have a, you know, x size audience and, you know, X and Y payroll for its staff and for the folks it brings in. I mean, how do you start getting that information? Do you just start trading notes with folks or people sort of offer that information? Are their sources of that information anywhere out there?
Randy [00:41:26] That's a good question. GALA Choruses, which is the GLBT Choruses in America and North America, as well as Chorus America and the ACDA, which is the music directors organization, all do surveys annually and all have reports on compensation. Not just compensation! They have reports on practically every aspect of running a chorus, but the big one that you're asking is the compensation reports. And you can actually see what every chorus - now this is, of course, based on self-reporting and the ones that answer. But a large percentage do. And you can see how many other choruses of a comparable size, or a comparable audience base for a comparable number of productions, are paying their staff, are paying their employees, and that will give you an idea.
Randy [00:42:14] Now, of course, you don't need to go by that. I mean, based on your mission, you might decide this is what we're, we have decided. But that will give you an idea of what other organizations are doing. I know of several choruses that have made a decision not to have paid staff where everything is volunteer: singers, instrumentalists, directors, everything. They have a certain amount of success because, if you can get a student following, that in itself is the payment, the reward. There are some people that don't need to be paid, and so they do it out of the love of the music. But there are many musicians in this world who want to make a living off of doing music. And so to be fair to them, I think you really do need to consider the compensation aspect of things. It doesn't matter if somebody has money, it matters whether or not they deserve the money.
Giacomo [00:43:14] That's fantastic. And we'll definitely... I mean, we're fans of all those organizations as well -Chorus America, ACDA, GALA. I mean, we'll put links to all of those resources, particularly the competition reports on our, on our page, so folks can look that up for themselves as well. As we round up our conversation, Randy, just a general question for you - thinking about troubleshooting, something that might be quite general for all the folks listening. What are some common issues you've seen with community choirs and how do you remedy those issues?
Randy [00:43:43] OK, there are... there are many different ones. One that comes quickly to mind is you cannot allow a member or a group of members to have enough leverage to blackmail the organization... [chuckles] basically. There has to be a provision in your incorporation or articles of incorporation or your bylaws to help, to keep that in check. And the best way to do that is to have communication with your members. But in cases where you have members, simply say, "We're not doing this and we're walking." I think the hard decision is that you need to let people walk. Either that or you, or you jeopardize your mission or you jeopardize your integrity. So that's one conflict, and I don't know if the answer is one that you want to hear, but if you give in to people, then you've set the precedent of changing the way that you run your organization.
Randy [00:44:42] And then in terms of other conflicts you have, you can have board conflict. And the easiest way to have, to get rid of board conflict is not have consensus-decision making, which is a really popular thing among choruses. You actually vote and follow the rules of order and you take your vote. And when somebody loses a vote, they have to simply accept that. So basically, I have seen... It sounds simple, but I've heard of so many cases where there was conflict because they wanted to do consensus decision making, and sometimes that is not possible. And I... And I also think that people need to be adult enough to accept the fact that something they want is not going to happen. And you have to simply live with the idea that some people aren't adult enough and will leave. Sort of like, "I'm taking my toys and walking.".
Randy [00:45:39] One way to avoid that is not to allow any single person in the organization to have that kind of leverage. Now, of course, GALA and Chorus America always talk about founder's syndrome, where the founder of the organization is on the board, runs everything, is in charge of everything and when they, one day, up and leave, the whole thing falls apart. Now, some organizations may start that way. There was... I can't remember the name of the organization in Minnesota. They had a very famous director. But anyway, when he decided to finally retire after many decades, the board voted to fold. Because they said their identity was so entwined with that director that once he was gone, their mission was now complete. I was surprised by that decision, but actually it was a smart decision in some cases. And there are several choruses I know of who have done that. But, for any other research that wants to have a lasting lifetime, you need to, you need to very seriously address the concept of founder's syndrome. Now, there's the founder needs... The founder can continue to be active and involved. But you have to have a succession plan for when that person leaves. We immediately know what we are going to do and that we're not going to be fumbling around saying, like, "Do we want to continue? Don't we? What do we do now?" There should be a succession plan in place that immediately just takes effect so that you can continue your operations.
Randy [00:47:14] This is, of course, with the idea that the person who is leaving gives you notice and don't plan to stay around [laughter from Giacomo]. You actually have a conflict with somebody, quits in disgust and leaves, you still have your succession plan. And you can... And there are, there's a lot of talent in this country where you can, like, grab people and say, "We need you now, step in."
Randy [00:47:34] And it happens more often than you... than you can, than you might think. I know of - offhand just right now thinking I know of five different choruses where the board either fired the artistic director or the artistic director quit in anger, and they had to then scramble to find somebody. And most cases, these people or these choruses which are established, have a succession plan and know what to do and are able to recover from that. So, your question was about conflict. What are the conflicts, were you thinking, maybe...
Giacomo [00:48:07] No, just common issues that... I mean, I was thinking budgetary...
Randy [00:48:10] Oh budgetary!
Giacomo [00:48:10] Just not planning for seasons or things like that where, you know, you may have bigger eyes than the wallet, you know.
Randy [00:48:19] Well obviously, if you have a balanced budget and it's a realistically balanced budget, the ideal thing is to underestimate your income and overestimate your expenses. And that's a sure way to end up with a surplus. If you cannot afford something, no matter how artistically desirable it is or how wonderful it might be, or how much it might enhance the musical world of your community, if you cannot afford it, you cannot do it. That has to be the way.
Giacomo [00:48:52] I feel like that's just, that's just like... common sense and being an adult.
Randy [00:48:57] [laughter from Giacomo] Oh, a lot of choruses have wishful thinking, and they will go out on a limb and budget for production and the way that they're going to pay for that production is solely from tickets. And if you do it that way, you're bound to be disappointed because you're always going to think that you can sell more tickets than you actually do. You need to have other sources of income, which can, which can be a foundation for your productions that do not count tickets because, I'm sure you've heard the quote, that ticket sales do not pay for the entire production I'm in. The opera says that, the symphony says that. Ticket sales really do not pay for your organization to run. You have to have other sources.
Giacomo [00:49:40] I think that's the beauty of one of the ideas that we keep coming back to on this podcast that we've learned about, which is this notion of concert design where you have the notion and then these concerts are actually pre-funded. So you have a level of interest from the audience where at least you can feel that there is a bare minimum of folks who either buy into a season or they're buying into a specific performance. And then you can have sort of a little bit of liberty to say, "Well, some of this is prepaid. We can make a projection or a sense of what will happen with these tickets." Which I think is great.
Giacomo [00:50:06] Randy, umm, I feel like we could chat for hours and hours [laughter from Randy], and we may actually call you back if we get some folks who are interested in more specific questions. I may have some more as I dig through. But I'd love to give you an opportunity to tell us about some of the things that you are working on. Do you have some upcoming performances or projects with the many groups you're associated with that you can tell our audience about?
Randy [00:50:26] Well, obviously I'm the managing director of the Golden Gate Men's Chorus, and after an 18 month hiatus, I think it's probably more by now, we are actually doing our holiday concerts and...
Giacomo [00:50:38] Woo-hoo!
Randy [00:50:38] I don't have those dates in front of me. But Giacomo, I'm sure you can add them later on.
Giacomo [00:50:43] I will indeed.
Randy [00:50:43] We're doing five performances on a Thursday, Friday, Thursday, Saturday, Sunday and Tuesday in December, I think the first weekend of December, at St. Matthew's Church in San Francisco. And this is something that a lot of our audience members look forward to. And for people who have not heard us, I invite them to come because it will be a special evening for you.
Randy [00:51:03] I'm also the music director of the GAPA Men's Chorus. We do not do a set concert series. We sing by invitation. So if you hear of an upcoming festival or event where GAPA Men's Chorus is going to be appearing, I'd invite you to come and hear us sing. But other than that, we basically sing as invited guests for political events, for ethnic festivals, basically and that kind of thing. The last thing that we sang in actually was in Tokyo in the... for the Hand-in-Hand Festival of Asian queer choruses, which we were very excited about. So, we have YouTube videos actually of those performances. So, Giacomo, you can search for those and maybe link to those performances.
Giacomo [00:51:51] I'll put those up as well. And, you know, just casually, it sounds like what you're saying is that you have more spare time in your life for another choir. And I don't know if you've heard of them, but the International Orange Chorale is actually also an excellent group and can always use basses [laughter from Zane].
Randy [00:52:06] Yes, I've heard this. I've heard this somehow.
Giacomo [00:52:10] [laughter] I'm shameless, Randy. I'm going to do this to you on air.
Randy [00:52:12] You know what? I would love to have a full time job singing, but I always... I really don't want to ever make a commitment that I have to renege on. So I want,.
Giacomo [00:52:25] You know, just be the... Be the change you want to see [laughter from Randy and Zane]
Randy [00:52:29] It's funny because I've been retired now for three years and now with the amount of stuff that I'm doing and the amount of just daily activity, I do not... I don't know how I managed to work 40 hours a week and do all of this on the side. Managing a chorus is a job that fills all the time that you have available, basically. [laughter].
Giacomo [00:52:52] Yeah.
Randy [00:52:52] There's a lot of stuff to do.
Giacomo [00:52:55] Well, Randy, this has been really great. We can't thank you enough and, I do mean it, we may have you on the show again.
Zane [00:53:01] Yeah, I think so.
Randy [00:53:02] Oh, thank you for having me here.
Zane [00:53:04] That's been really, really great. I'm positive we're going to have you back on to talk about more detail in some of these areas because I think for any of us involved in community groups or groups that are just trying to survive out there, having this extra bit of information is just so, so helpful. So, thank you for your time. We really appreciate it.
Randy [00:53:24] I think... Actually, from my... One of my strengths, I think, is that I'm a... I'm very, very obsessive compulsive about things [laughter from Giacomo], and so I need to have everything organized. I need to have everything in place. And I also like to know how things work. So, over all the years of being involved, I've been the CFO, I've been the secretary, I've been the CEO, I've been the manager, I've been a music director as well as the singer. I've served on several different boards of different choruses and music groups, and I actually learn from every experience that I'm in. So, it's not like I'm wearing one hat. When I step in as the manager, I'm doing, you know, the financials, I'm doing production. I'm doing a lot of different things. And for me, it's very fulfilling. It's something that I really love to do.
Zane [00:54:13] Well, thank you for your time. We really appreciate it. We'll talk to you again very soon, I hope.
Randy [00:54:17] OK, thank you.
Giacomo [00:54:18] For sure.
Randy [00:54:19] All right.
Giacomo [00:54:20] Bye, Randy.
Zane [00:54:22] Let's finish today's episode with a piece from another of Randy's choirs, the Golden Gate Men's Chorus, from the album "30". Here "Aruku", or walking, by Noboru Kitagawa. [00:54:35] [Music excerpt: a men's chorus sings a pensive melody in Japanese - somewhat halting, as if nostalgic about a past love and lost in thought while walking.]
Outro [00:58:52] Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the In Unison podcast. Be sure to check out episode extras and subscribe at inunison podcast dot com. You can follow us on all social media @inunisonpod. And leave us a review on Apple Podcasts to let us know what you think!
Chorus Dolores [00:59:09] Pitch pipes and tuning forks distributed by Chorus Dolores, who just has a quick question about Measure 42 B3.
Credits [00:59:20] In Unison is produced and recorded by Mission: Orange Studios. Our transcripts have been diligently edited by IOCSF member and friend of the pod, Fausto Daos, and our theme music is Mr. Puffy, written by Avi Bortnik, arranged by Paul Kim and performed by the Danish vocal jazz ensemble Dynamic on their debut album, This is Dynamic. Special thanks to Paul Kim for permission. Please be sure to check them out at www.dynamicjazz.dk